Airbus A320 crashed in Southern France
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This investigation has not being conducted according to ICAO 13 and we should ask the last 2 questions:
Who is serving this information to the media and what is the purpose of it?
Who is serving this information to the media and what is the purpose of it?
BTW, in a modern democracy, can you imagine they would answer nothing to say to the relatives when 149 persons have been killed ?
Professionals are working for their customers, the last ones are not travelling just to make the first ones enjoy their job ;-)
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Some people with depression will consider taking their own lives, some actually do. This man may or may not have been a depressive but he was something else far worse to consider and execute a form of mass destruction.
Obviously intelligent, as he was able to conceal his malady, he would have had little difficulty in amending his plan and tactics in order to cope with whatever security features were in place.
I fear that all the protection systems in the world will fail to prevent such a madman carrying out horrendous crimes. The best protection for the rest of us must surely be an attempt to prevent such people from being in a position where they are able to carry out such action.
At any one moment there are over 5,000 aircraft in the air. Safety of systems has been addressed and to a great degree solved. The training, screening and career potential of pilots seems to have gone in a different direction with a sector of the airlines. How a business can spend £20M on an aircraft and them cut financial corners on the human element beggars belief.
Obviously intelligent, as he was able to conceal his malady, he would have had little difficulty in amending his plan and tactics in order to cope with whatever security features were in place.
I fear that all the protection systems in the world will fail to prevent such a madman carrying out horrendous crimes. The best protection for the rest of us must surely be an attempt to prevent such people from being in a position where they are able to carry out such action.
At any one moment there are over 5,000 aircraft in the air. Safety of systems has been addressed and to a great degree solved. The training, screening and career potential of pilots seems to have gone in a different direction with a sector of the airlines. How a business can spend £20M on an aircraft and them cut financial corners on the human element beggars belief.
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Sorry, I just haven't time to read a couple of hundred posts every time I log on (I wish I had a job, at least I'd get a day off once a week !) so apologies if this has been covered, but disagree that now insisting that a F/A become the standby crew on the flight deck, to satisfy the 2 person rule, will suddenly alert bad guys to apply for the job.
Haven't F/A's always been allowed on to the flight deck, so what's new ?
Also .. "Security" will have removed the pilots nail clippers so he won't be able to defend himself against a F/A who picks up the fire axe !
Haven't F/A's always been allowed on to the flight deck, so what's new ?
Also .. "Security" will have removed the pilots nail clippers so he won't be able to defend himself against a F/A who picks up the fire axe !
Colt, civilian crews are in huge organisations compared with small air force units. They don't live in each other's pockets, socialise off duty as a general rule of even necessarily know by sight all the others.
Perhaps in the post-war golden age with navigators, radio operators, engineers, and a cabin staff, with one crew flying multiple stages then the crew would be 'constituted' . Neville Schute wrote a novel on that basis, DC6 or similar aircraft.
Perhaps in the post-war golden age with navigators, radio operators, engineers, and a cabin staff, with one crew flying multiple stages then the crew would be 'constituted' . Neville Schute wrote a novel on that basis, DC6 or similar aircraft.
Compare this now with typically 5 on, 3/4 off pattern varying between earlies and lates and wanting to recover on days off and/or crew members going home from a remote base to family on days off there is also little interaction. In my experience even when there was the occasional "do" at base (e.g. Christmas) those on earlies next day could not attend, those on lates were probably too tired to turn up at circa midnight when the party was almost over and many others would be in another country spending days off with family.
Also much of the communication to/from the Company is now via email/web etc or by phone to some roster clerk the other side of the Irish Sea who you had never met.
The hectic nature of the flying with short sectors and rapid turnarounds leaves little time for getting to know your fellow crew member other than in an operating capacity.
All these factors can compound the feeling of being isolated and merely a "worker drone in the collective" encapsulated in Charles Handy's book "The Empty Raincoat".
Last edited by fireflybob; 29th Mar 2015 at 07:21.
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Annex 13 investigation does not stop because there is a criminal investigation in progress (Lockerbie in UK) but some jurisdictions make it very difficult to maintain the high standards of Annex 13 investigators and are gungho with evidence that would not be disclosed prematurely.
That one mere fact changes the whole philosophy of the investigation - there aren't any 'holes in the cheese' to line up. It appears to have been a singular cause, by a singular act. Thankfully, an exceptionally rare one (as per my previous post);.
You could argue that in this case one of the holes in the swiss cheese was mandating locked cockpit doors in the first place.
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couple of things seem odd to me:
1. they found an "unfit for duty" torn up note in his trash? Assuming the wording is correct, is that the kind of note a German private physician would give a patient? Does that sound right to anyone familiar with German procedure? Cause it sounds more like an excuse from an airline PR person than an actual note from a private physician. I'm talking about those specific words. Just asking.
2. 600 hrs? really? does that sound like normal time for A 320 first officer new hire at even a low cost carrier in Germany? anyone know?
3. he got a years LOA due to a medical problem in initial training? Is that right? If you couldn't hack initial training at any airline I've ever heard about, you were terminated. Are the germans different, or is the info wrong?
4. I wish folks would not assume that he did this cause he was depressed. I doubt that any reasonable mental health professional would ascribe to the theory that he did it because he was depressed. He may have well been depressed, but he was something else a lot worse than that, imo.
1. they found an "unfit for duty" torn up note in his trash? Assuming the wording is correct, is that the kind of note a German private physician would give a patient? Does that sound right to anyone familiar with German procedure? Cause it sounds more like an excuse from an airline PR person than an actual note from a private physician. I'm talking about those specific words. Just asking.
2. 600 hrs? really? does that sound like normal time for A 320 first officer new hire at even a low cost carrier in Germany? anyone know?
3. he got a years LOA due to a medical problem in initial training? Is that right? If you couldn't hack initial training at any airline I've ever heard about, you were terminated. Are the germans different, or is the info wrong?
4. I wish folks would not assume that he did this cause he was depressed. I doubt that any reasonable mental health professional would ascribe to the theory that he did it because he was depressed. He may have well been depressed, but he was something else a lot worse than that, imo.
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1. they found an "unfit for duty" torn up note in his trash? Assuming the wording is correct, is that the kind of note a German private physician would give a patient? Does that sound right to anyone familiar with German procedure? Cause it sounds more like an excuse from an airline PR person than an actual note from a private physician. I'm talking about those specific words. Just asking.
2. 600 hrs? really? does that sound like normal time for A 320 first officer new hire at even a low cost carrier in Germany? anyone know?
3. he got a years LOA due to a medical problem in initial training? Is that right? If you couldn't hack initial training at any airline I've ever heard about, you were terminated. Are the germans different, or is the info wrong?
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costalpilot
Here We go again ) Half the thread has been deleted already
Normally ANY person goes to their Doctor to GET a sick note to give to their employers because they feel unwell to work! They give that note to Employers and take the time off. Its unusual that a patient requesting a sick note would tear it up as that means they don't want to use it for whatever reason and the employer would not know anything about it unless the patient handed it in
600 hours is perfectly normal and could be half that for an FO his ATPL remains frozen till 1500 hours
Depressed people normally would not hurt a fly and that blanket term to cover a person who has knowingly murdered 150 people doesn't fit anymore than the young person who hates school goes to the school and mows down with a gun scores of innocent children to satisfy his anger at the school. Those who describe him with a blaket depression do a discredit to millions of people who suffer depression but are caring sensitive people who would not harm a fly only themselves! This guy was a warped monster for what he has done and in a different league to just depression. The Yorkshire ripper was a saint in comparison and he was locked up for life
Here We go again ) Half the thread has been deleted already
Normally ANY person goes to their Doctor to GET a sick note to give to their employers because they feel unwell to work! They give that note to Employers and take the time off. Its unusual that a patient requesting a sick note would tear it up as that means they don't want to use it for whatever reason and the employer would not know anything about it unless the patient handed it in
600 hours is perfectly normal and could be half that for an FO his ATPL remains frozen till 1500 hours
Depressed people normally would not hurt a fly and that blanket term to cover a person who has knowingly murdered 150 people doesn't fit anymore than the young person who hates school goes to the school and mows down with a gun scores of innocent children to satisfy his anger at the school. Those who describe him with a blaket depression do a discredit to millions of people who suffer depression but are caring sensitive people who would not harm a fly only themselves! This guy was a warped monster for what he has done and in a different league to just depression. The Yorkshire ripper was a saint in comparison and he was locked up for life
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1. they found an "unfit for duty" torn up note in his trash? Assuming the wording is correct, is that the kind of note a German private physician would give a patient? Does that sound right to anyone familiar with German procedure? Cause it sounds more like an excuse from an airline PR person than an actual note from a private physician. I'm talking about those specific words. Just asking.
Here is the full text (in German):Die Pressemitteilung der Staatsanwaltschaft Düsseldorf im Wortlaut
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Odysseus: Similarly, being video-monitored during flight operations may become a condition of the privilege to be an passenger airline pilot.
Despite being low-tech, a second person in the cockpit to simply open the door is worth more than a thousand cameras to record video for the media afterward.
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Despite being low-tech, a second person in the cockpit to simply open the door is worth more than a thousand cameras to record video for the media afterward
The reason for this crash was twofold! Firstly a mentally ill pilot determined to put his name in history by murdering 150 people who were in his care.
Secondly the door system which was designed to keep terrorists out was used to keep a terror (ist ) in to do his evil deeds
The answer is not in Cabin crew but a means of the locked out pilot gaining access to the flight deck and overriding the pilot inside.
In this case it was a mentally disturbed pilot inside but also consider that while one pilot is out of the flight deck a terrorist could in a flash push in and with some knowledge stop the other crew member entering.
There has to be longterm a system of overriding a terrorist or mentally sick pilot from blocking access
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No factor in isolation causes an accident, and this was something that Professor James Reason, of Manchester University, as one of the leading experts in Human Error always stressed including the active and latent failures that are always present in accidents, just consider the Herald of Free Enterprise, Quinteshill, Bhopal, Erebus, Piper Alpha disasters.
Fireflybob is correct to suggest that there will be more than one factor, not least the human factors consideration in having a locked flight deck door, but if you take the Reason Model (Swiss Cheese) further by considering the SHELL model, and by that I mean the interfaces that will always exist between the Liveware(pilots), Software (proceedures, SOPs), Hardware (the aircraft), and the Environment (Wx,Altitude).
Hence in this disaster:
Liveware-Liveware (No one detected that were issues with the co-pilot, for example other crew members, medical officers, and the company)
Liveware-Hardware (no means of Captain getting back into the flightdeck)
Liveware-Software (company culture, rapid turnaround, leaving am inxeperienced pilot at the controls, the need for a crew member to leave the flight deck on such a short flight, when perhaps this should have been done on the turnaround, perhaps a need to amend the SOP here).
Liveware-Environment (possibly this doesn't come into play, unless there was a loss of pressurisatiion).
This isn't a comprehensive list, just the start as facts become clear, but if any pilot seriously thinks there is only one factor in this accident, then I kindly suggest that they haven't recieved the Human Factors/CRM training they deserve.
Fireflybob is correct to suggest that there will be more than one factor, not least the human factors consideration in having a locked flight deck door, but if you take the Reason Model (Swiss Cheese) further by considering the SHELL model, and by that I mean the interfaces that will always exist between the Liveware(pilots), Software (proceedures, SOPs), Hardware (the aircraft), and the Environment (Wx,Altitude).
Hence in this disaster:
Liveware-Liveware (No one detected that were issues with the co-pilot, for example other crew members, medical officers, and the company)
Liveware-Hardware (no means of Captain getting back into the flightdeck)
Liveware-Software (company culture, rapid turnaround, leaving am inxeperienced pilot at the controls, the need for a crew member to leave the flight deck on such a short flight, when perhaps this should have been done on the turnaround, perhaps a need to amend the SOP here).
Liveware-Environment (possibly this doesn't come into play, unless there was a loss of pressurisatiion).
This isn't a comprehensive list, just the start as facts become clear, but if any pilot seriously thinks there is only one factor in this accident, then I kindly suggest that they haven't recieved the Human Factors/CRM training they deserve.
[normal] breathing
managed to breath normally
Seems a lot of people are focused on the reported normal respiratory rate.
I dont recall the original reports describing the pattern of breathing, only that the pilot was breathing. Feel free to correct me if wrong.
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Been a pilot for 45 years and a suicide counsellor for 12 years. I offer a few pertinent facts:
1. Men are 3x more likely to take their own life than women.
2. When men kill themselves, they usually use violent methods such as firearms, hanging, jumping off a high building/bridge, crashing a car etc. Women, by contrast would much more typically take an overdose.
3. Men are notorious for hiding suicidal feelings until it is too late. Women typically wear their heart on their sleeve - anyone around them is likely to see the signs that they are becoming mentally unstable and self destructive.
Time for more women on the flight deck?
1. Men are 3x more likely to take their own life than women.
2. When men kill themselves, they usually use violent methods such as firearms, hanging, jumping off a high building/bridge, crashing a car etc. Women, by contrast would much more typically take an overdose.
3. Men are notorious for hiding suicidal feelings until it is too late. Women typically wear their heart on their sleeve - anyone around them is likely to see the signs that they are becoming mentally unstable and self destructive.
Time for more women on the flight deck?
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athonite, Are you a professional pilot? I ask because you seem to suggest that you have knowledge and wisdom which is denied to many of us.
What if it's a longhaul flight?
AFAIK there is no serious current or proposed means of preventing either pilot from deliberately crashing the aircraft. Would that there were.
These are extremely rare events and, correct me if I'm wrong, the first by a Western European pilot.
the need for a crew member to leave the flight deck on such a short flight
AFAIK there is no serious current or proposed means of preventing either pilot from deliberately crashing the aircraft. Would that there were.
These are extremely rare events and, correct me if I'm wrong, the first by a Western European pilot.
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"Some people with depression will consider taking their own lives, some actually do. This man may or may not have been a depressive but he was something else far worse to consider and execute a form of mass destruction".
This is a long thread and as I'm of a similar age to Funfly, I feel life may be too short to wade through it all - apologies if this has been raised before.
I agree, it seems probable that something more than "simple" depression applies here. I would have thought that had this fellow's clinical condition been less profoundly disturbed, it would have been both simple and convenient, since he was a member of the local flying club, to leave a note, book a spamcan for an hour and quietly disappear into the boonies. To deliberately kill all the others suggests a psychotic condition which would have been difficult to conceal, particularly in the intimacy of a flightdeck.
An obvious conclusion to be drawn from this is that some amendment to patient/doctor confidentiality protocols is required to allow a doctor to alert appropriate authorities of his/her concerns in respect of mental stability. Perhaps this already exists but if so, something went horribly wrong on this occasion.
This is a long thread and as I'm of a similar age to Funfly, I feel life may be too short to wade through it all - apologies if this has been raised before.
I agree, it seems probable that something more than "simple" depression applies here. I would have thought that had this fellow's clinical condition been less profoundly disturbed, it would have been both simple and convenient, since he was a member of the local flying club, to leave a note, book a spamcan for an hour and quietly disappear into the boonies. To deliberately kill all the others suggests a psychotic condition which would have been difficult to conceal, particularly in the intimacy of a flightdeck.
An obvious conclusion to be drawn from this is that some amendment to patient/doctor confidentiality protocols is required to allow a doctor to alert appropriate authorities of his/her concerns in respect of mental stability. Perhaps this already exists but if so, something went horribly wrong on this occasion.
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BASIL - since you asked ATPL/FI/IR, 32 plus types flown, in excess of twenty years experience in Aviation Human Factors, including academic research, published papers, training of crews from over twenty five countries worldwide!
I only questioned the need to leave flight decks on short haul flights, not long haul, by that I mean flights up to say three hours.
I only questioned the need to leave flight decks on short haul flights, not long haul, by that I mean flights up to say three hours.
Last edited by athonite; 28th Mar 2015 at 23:27.
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Door not culpable?
To the people saying it's not the door but it's the person: if you employ some reductionist thought process - would you disagree that opening the door could have altered the course of events from what is available as information? I am not sure it would have changed the ultimate outcome (may have been too late) but I am sure it would have changed the course of events. So the door problem needs to be addressed period.
Last edited by Ozmd; 28th Mar 2015 at 23:32. Reason: Grammar; clearing ambiguity
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Said before and I will say again
All this discussion about getting into the cockpit/ rogue pilot / 2 inside at any one time etc is fair given the current situation.
That said I have been banging away ( no pun intended) for about 5 years on the following "elephant in the room" whereby on several jet liners, those with hostile intentions do not need to even get into the flight deck to achieve their aims.
Whilst the recent events raise several issues, I cannot help think that the one here presents even more concern given the state of global politics. And now we seem to have another one starting in Yemen with ME coalition partners.
And I repeat, this is a Rumsfeld ' known unknown'. It has been elevated to those in power / authority capable of changing it - with no result as yet. Make your own mind up if it's mere sensationalism or a potential threat, yet to materialise.
http://youtu.be/mLmzvF2qkDY
That said I have been banging away ( no pun intended) for about 5 years on the following "elephant in the room" whereby on several jet liners, those with hostile intentions do not need to even get into the flight deck to achieve their aims.
Whilst the recent events raise several issues, I cannot help think that the one here presents even more concern given the state of global politics. And now we seem to have another one starting in Yemen with ME coalition partners.
And I repeat, this is a Rumsfeld ' known unknown'. It has been elevated to those in power / authority capable of changing it - with no result as yet. Make your own mind up if it's mere sensationalism or a potential threat, yet to materialise.
http://youtu.be/mLmzvF2qkDY
