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Airbus A320 crashed in Southern France

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Airbus A320 crashed in Southern France

Old 29th Mar 2015, 12:33
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And asked whether he believed the crash that killed 150 people was the result of suicide, he said: 'People who commit suicide usually do so alone... I don't call it a suicide.'
You call it suicide above the comments from the prosecutor
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Old 29th Mar 2015, 12:34
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I'm not very sure of anybody's ability to look into somebody's instantaneous mind set bent on destroying themselves and others with them.

I would prefer to work on ways of mitigating such actions especially to others.

I have no problem with the unofficial release of the prelim results of this investigation to advise others who can take action towards this mitigation in a timely manner.

I just hate to think that a post 9-11 reaction created a new lethal -problem.
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Old 29th Mar 2015, 12:38
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Release of CVR Data

A bad week for Air Safety has been made even worse by the irresponsible, premature and unnecessary release of CVR data. The need for this disclosure does not outweigh "the adverse domestic and international impact such action may have on that or any future investigations" (Annex 13)

I hope the BEA publicly distances itself from this debacle.
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Old 29th Mar 2015, 12:43
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Thankyou mods, things look a lot calmer now.

Two things:

Chicken is right. The misunderstandings surrounding SSRIs seem to be huge. I hope Mr Chicken will elaborate on that.

I can only speak for Sweden now.

There are some illnesses that our Doc HAS to report to Transportstyrelsen (our gouvernment agency that oversees transport by air, rail, sea, road). These includes epilepsy, diseases affecting CNS system, dementia of all sorts, schizophrenia, ADHD, autism spectrum to name a few. This is nothing you can escape or beg the Doc to hide. These tings MUST be reported.

There are also a few things that Doc can report if s/he deems the patient to be a risk for transport security. This includes a few vision problems, psycothic episodes, suicidal thoughts, a few joint problems, and a range of other thing that Doc may consider dangerous.

If you have come under Transportstyrelsen scrutiny, there are ways out. If the illness or syndrome is transient in nature (like temporary suicidal thoughts or joint problems) you are being followed up on a regular basis until Doc clears you and you get your licence back. The same with ADHD and autism spectrum. You are being monitored for a while with regular follow ups and if Doc says everything's A-OK you're green to go. It has to be a specialist in the field that clears you though. If you had mental problems, it needs to be a psychiatrist. Vision problems - an eye doctor. Cancer: onchologist and so on.

One more thing: I would like to agree with Pace. People who do this kind of thing have a mindset more like school shooters than being depressed.
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Old 29th Mar 2015, 13:01
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Mr Snuggles

This is the problem I see that no category of illness has been diagnosed on this individual yet a media induced blanket diagnosis will lead to a Witch hunt on pilots! Who will pay for those extra tests? And what are those test for?

We especially in corporate jets pay our own medicals which with all the normal tests are already now very expensive.

We already see knee jerk reactions and unthought out reactions to CC being put on flight decks to appease the lack of confidence in the Airlines that this incident has caused

Was this guy a psychopath? what is his particular condition that caused him to take out 150 innocent lives in a mass murder obviously with NO consideration for those poor people in his care? Depression ? I think not! It appears to be totally premeditated and planned just awaiting the opportunity

This is all far to vague and not specific Are there tests which can pin point a Specific condition that would make someone knowingly murder 150 people ? What is that condition? that is what needs to be identified and protected against not whether you have had an argument with the girlfriend or going through a divorce! Thats normal life

Last edited by Pace; 29th Mar 2015 at 13:29.
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Old 29th Mar 2015, 13:01
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And if you are a JetBlue co-pilot who has good cause to lock out the Captain?

There is no solution to this dichotomy. The failure wasn't with the cockpit door, the failure was elsewhere.
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Old 29th Mar 2015, 13:11
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German employment law

As I stated before, the German employment law is to blame in the fist place. The FO had a motivation to conceal his health issues from his employer. He did it on purpose AND was aided by German employment law.

Under German employment law it is the responsibility of an employee to inform an employer if they were deemed unfit to work. An employer(DLH/GWI in this case) do not have the right to ask for medical information from any employee. It is their responsibility to tell their superior, to tell their employer if they are sick. Even doctors could not step in as the data would be protected.
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Old 29th Mar 2015, 13:15
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Originally Posted by AmuDarya
MONTREAL-- The International Federation of Air Line Pilots’ Associations (IFALPA) deplores and condemns yesterday's leaking of certain elements of the Cockpit Voice Recorder (CVR) of the Germanwings flight 4U9525.

Not only do these leaks contravene the internationally agreed principles of accident investigation confidentiality set out in ICAO Annex 13, they are also a breach of trust to all those involved in the investigation and to the families of the victims. Furthermore, leaks of this nature greatly harm flight safety since they invite ill-informed speculation from the media and the general public and discourage co-operation with investigators in future accidents.

IFALPA once again stresses that the sole purpose of a CVR is to aid investigators in determining the factors leading to an accident and not to apportion blame or be used outside of its safety context. CVR details should only be publicly released following a thorough and complete investigation of the events that occurred, and not prematurely during the course of the field portion of the accident investigation, underway for less than 48 hours.

Leaking premature, unanalyzed, and partial CVR recordings, which lack the context of the entire body of factual investigative data, severely interferes with the investigative process, and can only lead to early conclusions on what exactly occurred during the time leading up to the accident. Any other use of CVR data is not only invalid, but is an unacceptable invasion of privacy best described as a search for sensationalism and voyeurism of the worst kind.

It is vital for the investigating body to ensure all information under their control is properly handled until the completion of the investigation.

In this early stage of the investigation, many critical questions remain to be answered, and IFALPA stresses the need for an objective accident investigation process through the collection of all the facts needed to draw an accurate analysis of events. Once again, IFALPA’s resources are at the disposal of the Accident Investigation Agencies to achieve these aims.

Note: The International Federation of Air Line Pilots’ Associations represents in excess of 100,000 pilots in more than 100 countries world-wide. IFALPA’s mission is to be the global voice of airline pilots, promoting the highest level of aviation safety and security world-wide and providing services, support and representation to all of its Member Associations.
1. It has become abundantly plain from the release of more data from the CVR that this was not an accident therefore the rules for accident investigation no longer apply. This is now a criminal investigation of a mass murder.

2. It is also plain that the security rules in place in many airlines and enabled by technology, are not sufficient to prevent this type of event recurring. It is therefore urgent to ensure that all air carriers and regulatory authorities are immediately aware of the issues and can take action that they see fit to mitigate the actual safety risk to their passengers and aircraft. This approach of provision of information for immediate mitigation of a risk is standard practice even in an accident investigation.

IFALPA needs to get off its high horse and think about what has been published and what IFALPA should do to assist mitigation of an actual risk. As is often the case in criminal investigations, which this now is, the investigators have not leapt to judgment on guesses and have a lot more information from the CVR which had not been made publicly available when IFALPA wrote their letter. Their letter in hindsight may not look particularly well judged.
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Old 29th Mar 2015, 13:49
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It is therefore urgent to ensure that all air carriers and regulatory authorities are immediately aware of the issues and can take action that they see fit to mitigate the actual safety risk to their passengers and aircraft
Whoa there, runaway steed. And what 'actions' may they be? And how will they 'mitigate risks'?

The whole problem is that nobody knows what the 'right actions' may be. The cockpit door policy post 9-11 was not fully thought through, as we can all see. (Some of us did warn the authorities.) So why rush in with new proposals, when these new ideas are equally fraught with unintended consequences? See my post here.

(A reply to my post.)

And nobody has replied to my primary question yet.

Would you want a nuclear power plant to recruit anyone from the streets, give them a few weeks training, and then place them in charge of the nuclear power plant's control room? And give them full authority to overpower the power station's highly trained controllers, whenever they feel like it?

That is what the CAA and various airlines are proposing. Is this sensible? Has anyone thought this through?

Last edited by silverstrata; 29th Mar 2015 at 13:50. Reason: typo
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Old 29th Mar 2015, 13:51
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Problems with "medical" evidence.

Too much emphasis on either psychologists or psychiatrists will get us nowhere.

Neither school of thought has anything other than unproven theories. Very few peer reviewed published studies in either of these pseudo sciences advance our knowledge of the human condition. Unless, of course, they point out the bleeding obvious!

When I was at Uni, only the mad and psychologically unbalanced medics went in to Psychiatry.
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Old 29th Mar 2015, 13:58
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Didn't mean to call it either suicide or murder....

And apologies if my post gives that impression....

Just wanted to give an example, from first hand knowledge, that we will never be able to know conclusively why the FO did what he did because he's no longer here to give us the reason(s)....Best guess / deductions, yes, but absolute certainty, no....
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Old 29th Mar 2015, 14:06
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Class 1 medical

The class 1 medical is covering both Physical and Mental health issues.

In my opinion the mental part can only be covered by an expert that knows the aviation world inside out. The abuses by the low cost carriers have to have an impact on the mental health of the pilots. The fact that some have to borrow up to 150000 leave them vulnerable.

But the most important issue is that getting a license has been reduced to a multiple choice exam and video game.

It is a serious profession and needs to be approached in a similar way. We have to get rid of these commercially exploited training schools as soon as possible.
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Old 29th Mar 2015, 14:12
  #2533 (permalink)  
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The release of the "contents" of the CVR was not necessary to the general public . The release of a transcript or a summary of initial recommendations to the relevant stakeholders who could actually effect change may be the point IFALPA is making .
The actual CVR recordings could be in isolation prejudicial . As we can see , many experts here already KNOW exactly what factors caused this when all the data has yet to be collated and investigated . The public and media(Pprune included) cannot change the regulations , so the need for details are a unending desire in this e-centric cyber universe to know all NOW .
Unfortunately , the media does influence the politics of the decision makers .

Last edited by Stone_cold; 29th Mar 2015 at 14:13. Reason: Grammar
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Old 29th Mar 2015, 14:28
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Was lubitz on a regularly scheduled flight for him or was he called in on reserve?
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Old 29th Mar 2015, 14:38
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Just one possible correction ZS-NDV , and some have already have posted it , if access is denied via the CDLS , the keypad is disabled . As with all Airbus , not sure what this particular MSN had fitted . Also , you allude to the fact that there is a lot of assumptions here , maybe most have no reason to get too involved in the emotive discourse and await the outcome of the investigation ?
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Old 29th Mar 2015, 14:48
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1.) First point is valid. Completely valid. I have flown some old dogs and I know at best of times it's impossible to hear yourself chewing on food let alone breathing!

2.) Regarding the altitude selection. I dunno, some a/c have knobs which do have the faint click click sound, other's don't but it doesn't matter as the altitude selection on the MCP was relayed via Mode-S. Even the anoraks picked it up

Putting 2 together from here and 2 from there results in me being convinced the guy just wanted to end his life in the most spectacular and selfish way possible.

I would highly recommend a review of this article for all.
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Old 29th Mar 2015, 14:49
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Now that the cause of this tragedy is in the open and there were no technical issues, the time will come when it is a case of move on, folks - nothing to see here.

There may well be a lesson though, with reference to the normal practice of cadets from airline flying schools going straight into the right hand seat of jet transports following type rating courses. From the time these youngsters undertake their first flight simulator training in an Airbus or a Boeing, they are pounded on standard operating procedures and their training is primarily concerned with flying on automatic pilot. They have had no time to enjoy the thrill of real flying apart from the hard yards on the commercial pilot training courses.

What early enthusiasm and absolute love of flying they may have had in their first few dual instruction ab-initio flights, soon must wane as the competition increases for a future airline slot.

Assuming the cadet graduates with a CPL and no real aviation experience, he then finally passes a type rating course and is shoe-horned into an airliner.

From now on he hits the manuals every night. He might be unlucky enough to crew with an autocratic captain for his line training. We have all ben there-done that All of his flying from now will be on automatic pilot and heads down into the button pushing with often constant criticism of his ability to absorb "instruction".

Is it any wonder some of these young people lose their enthusiasm and their initial love of flying since they first flew solo. It is not hard to see how disillusionment can set in when all they are now seeing is no more fun flying, but a future life of button pushing and SOP's. They learn these cursed SOP's as a defence against criticism rather than for a love of reading a technical manual.

Management who hire these cadets, must educate their captains to use old fashioned good manners and kindness when training these youngsters and avoid the carping and often destructive criticism that all pilots know can happen to the vulnerable. Cadet first officers should be encouraged to hand fly as much as possible where circumstances permit. Too often, captains forget that they once loved the thrill of actually flying an aeroplane, albeit years ago, rather than watch the automatic pilot do everything.

I wonder if the first officer that deliberately crashed his Germanwings A320 had been subjected during his Airbus training to a harsh training atmosphere where nothing he could do would please his instructors and check captains?

Investigators need to look into the personalities involved with this lad's training because rude and aggressive "instructing" can cause loss of confidence in one's flying ability. Heaven knows what demons then rise up when flight after flight is nothing but tension in the cockpit - be it simulator or the real thing. All of us have struck this problem during our flying career at one time or another. Some have the courage to kick back at the tormentors that occasionally occupy the left seat while others are helpless against it and need time to harden up.

All of this is not to say that the Germanwings first officer suffered unfortunate experiences during his training as an Airbus pilot. That will be left to the investigators to find out. But following this recent tragedy involving a new inexperienced cadet first officer, airline managements responsible for hiring cadet pilots should start to look more closely into their training personalities and training practices.

Young cadet pilots are far more vulnerable to the actions of irritable and impatient captains; much more so than experienced first officers - many of whom will have gained the confidence to tell the occasional autocratic screaming skull captains to show respect to the second in command and to back off or else.
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Old 29th Mar 2015, 15:14
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Well written! I don't fly airlines but came through flying into corporate jets through 3000 plus hours of bashing around in numerous piston twins often single pilot and in conditions where you really had to think for yourself, Then followed by some ferry work! in jets too and often bottom of the pile old jets.

these youngsters rush into airline work missing all that out and it takes a different sort of personality to the flying I have done or would want to do.

Many fly multiple sectors hardly on the ground before setting off on another sector!!! bus drivers even if they are automated AIRBUS drivers (Not Pilots many of them ) but procedure and automation guys! such a soulless flying

But I still state even stressed or depressed people even people with suicidal thoughts don't harm anyone but themselves and certainly do not pre meditate the murder of 150 people if that is true and what appears to be the case.

That specific mental illness ( No different to any other medical diagnosis from Cancer to heart disease not a blanket he is ill diagnosis ) needs to be diagnosed and identified and people with that potential kept out of an aeroplane because be it an aeroplane or a school yard with a gun they are time bombs waiting to go off

Last edited by Pace; 29th Mar 2015 at 15:25.
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Old 29th Mar 2015, 15:21
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I believe a "clicking" dial is a customer option.
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Old 29th Mar 2015, 15:26
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Holey Cheese

Limiting this to the questions or comments about early release of the CVR information in a narrow sense, and the nature of the post-incident inquiries more generally:
Ian W's post quite properly cites the language of the IFALPA press release insofar as it relies upon the ICAO "accident" terminology. But is it really, either, or? In other words, when the French law enforcement cadres take charge - by the way, what is the standard for their taking charge? Some posters have reached the conclusion that it is "obvious" or even, that anyone not seeing the obviousness is in some kind of denial, that the post-incident inquiry must be predominantly a criminal one. Was this an adjudicatory decision by a French tribunal possessed of competent jurisdiction? Do the French authorities have a stated, published standard which demarcates the suspicion of a crime from the evidentiary basis to proceed to investigate one which the law of France deems to have been committed?
But leaving such legal issues aside, once the criminal machinery is switched "on", that is not the end of the cause and effect analysis. And indeed, does anyone NOT think that the criminal investigators lack a major degree of the aeronautical and systems knowledge held, first, by BEA, and more broadly, its companion CAAs around the world and as united by ICAO?
And then....despite issuance of two-crewmember rulings in the immediate aftermath, no one, let me repeat no one, is wise enough and well-informed enough at this moment to prescribe, proscribe or inscribe what the solutions will be to the various problems. There are issues in FO qualifications, clearly, but their analysis let alone solutions lie deeply embedded in the state of the air carrier business in Europe and globally. There are issues in aeromedical standards and their enforcement, but hardly any real facts yet are known. There are issues too in such more concrete matters, like doors and keys and locks and codes and the inherent propensities of flying aviators to pay attention to lovely hosties who visit up front. Wait, that isn't an issue? (oh well, the more things change, the more they.....)
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