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Airbus A320 crashed in Southern France

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Airbus A320 crashed in Southern France

Old 29th Mar 2015, 00:07
  #2441 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: UK/Far East
Posts: 39
Types of suidical ideation....

The main type of suicidal ideation is one thing and often treated quite well with medication under the auscpices of an experienced GP or Psych specialist.

Most suicidal ideation is 'inwardly' expressed.....however there is a type that relates to more than just internal suicide ideation ans becomes 'exogenous' and relates to others. This type is often related of 'Schizoactive' personaily disorders and Schizophrenia-types also.

We are all prone to a possible 'psychosis' on day based on our personality issues ans lifestyle/background.

I deal with all manner of these issues daily and have done for the last 20yrs.

We can only begin to understand what went wrong in this case. I have many times advised to 'ground'/de-roster pilots for many reasons over the years.

Pilots work in a very unusual set of circumstances compared to most. Slight hypoxia at altitude, especially on longer-haul and also sometimes very limited rest periods.
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Old 29th Mar 2015, 00:43
  #2442 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2015
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Medical assessment/information sharing vs German employment law

This tragic incident would probably not have happened in the first place IF there were not such nonsensical privacy law or the employment law in Germany. Under German employment law it was the responsibility of an employee to inform an employer if they were deemed unfit to work. An employer(DLH/GWI in this case) do not have the right to ask for medical information from any employee. It is their responsibility to tell their superior, to tell their employer if they are sick. Even doctors could not step in as the data would be protected. And YES, there is a motivation to lie about health issues to an employer!
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Old 29th Mar 2015, 00:44
  #2443 (permalink)  
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Not covered by the SARPs, but still related to the regulatory, policy & legal issues

This horrendous tragedy and senseless loss of life, and damage to so many utterly blameless loved ones, must, simply must become a source of motivation for all parties (individuals, organizations, States) involved in the apparatus of contemporary global civil aviation to "get cracking" and define, and solve, problems now brought into starker relief.
But beyond this truism - and I know, certainly, ICAO is a process on top of another process on top of several more - there is something else dramatically calling out for attention here. Post after post, over many dozens of pages, want to reach the subject of suicide. If the reported facts hold up, once the civil AND criminal investigations are completed, the FO did take his own life. But it is a dishonor to the memories of the crash victims and their families to contextualize the immoral conduct at issue here as a "suicide" rather than as a mass murder in which the villain also took his own life (again, based on the information to date). Even if mentally ill, which is far from known at this juncture, morality still attaches and applies.
For perspective, those who want to pontificate about suicidal impulses and actions, or even just want to discuss it, have a look at J.D. Salinger's cryptic short story, "A Perfect Day for Bananafish" - suicide is hardly the big mystery so many want to make it out to be.
I don't have any draft revised SARPs in my pocket, no I don't. But this air crash disaster is a watershed event, not quite on the scale of four aircraft turned into air-to-ground missiles, but just one, or at most two, rungs down the ladder.
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Old 29th Mar 2015, 01:05
  #2444 (permalink)  
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Some fighter airplanes have software that prevents an inadvertent crash into terrain. Not real new stuff.

Keep in mind, though, the fighter pilot does not want to die in a CFIT. He has a distracting mission though. Once he returns to base, his purpose is to make a safe approach and landing.

However, if he decides to kill himself on short final, he will succeed.

Same for any airliner.
aterpster is offline  
Old 29th Mar 2015, 01:09
  #2445 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2009
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Originally Posted by Ingenieur View Post
The 'industry' did not create this guy
Utter nonsense
This guy created this guy

Blaming everything but this guy
The industry
The pay
The security system
The process

This guy is solely responsible for this

What is scary is pilots are trying to make excuses or transfer responsibility
To justify these actions
Very disturbing

This has happened a few times out of millions and millions of flights involving 100's of 1000's of pilots

This has nothing to do with aviation
The occupation just made it easier and more catastrophic
While I see your point, I will suggest to you that our current "culture" is morphing more and more into the "Drama Queen Culture" of the self obsessed. If one pays attention to the social pathology that plays out on social media, which I do as my wife and I had to deal with our kids being exposed to it as it exploded and they entered the wired/connected age, this C/P's acting out is a logical (and irrational at the same time) taking of cultural influences to an extreme.

I expect a right pillaging for taking this position, but being in a nation full of drama queens, some of whom I deal with in the workplace, generation X has been succeeded by what I have heard called "generation whine" and "generation Y" and "generation Why is the world so hard?"

With change in culture and tech comes cost. It is sometimes hidden, it is sometimes very obvious. Back in the 70's, a guy named Toffler called it "future shock." I suggest that those of us from previous generations may be experiencing future shock in terms of dealing with the current generation of young adults. Consider what that does to the CRM challenge?

We only share some common cultural points of reference. Those we don't is where the frustration lies ... and likewise, my father who grew up poor in the Great Depression only shares some, not all, cultural points of reference with me and my siblings.

I hate to say this, but expect more of this crap, not less, in terms of the "it's all about me" attitude and how that plays out when people get into stress conditions. I say this realizing that I don't know this guy from Adam, and could be utterly wrong about what was going on inside his head.

Flame me if you must, but I thought I'd toss this out there. My experiences with young adults in the past ten years has been strange, to say the least, in part because I can only partly identify with their concerns and world view. It isn't the same as mine was, but it is similar. It's in the differences that we can sometimes be blind to their emotional needs and motivations.
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Old 29th Mar 2015, 01:31
  #2446 (permalink)  
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After investigating the route which they took out of Barcelona, I have deduced that the airways they would have planned from LEBL to EDDL is via UN870 and UT853/T853.


Of course 4U 9525 never got any further than MAXIR, but it is after the waypoint ROTIS that interests me.

The track from ROTIS to MAXIR is 043. If this was infact in the FMGS flight plan, and the aircraft was in managed NAV mode for lateral navigation when it crashed, then it would have stayed on this track during its descent.

But if you look at the track from FD24, it's final track was actually 026. That is, it turned 17 degrees to the left from its assumed FMGS flight plan track, that's if the airways they intended to take is the one I have above.

This turn happened before top of descent (according to FD24 raw data published elsewhere). Wouldn't such a turn off track (pull selected mode) be consistent with memory item procedures for an emergency descent?
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Old 29th Mar 2015, 01:38
  #2447 (permalink)  
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Does it really matter? The guy took the plane into the ground using the automatics he was trained to use. We are all vulnerable to the calculated actions of those we rely on. No need to invoke spectres of evil, human beings all have weakness's.
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Old 29th Mar 2015, 01:54
  #2448 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by BOING View Post
Have to say this but it will never happen.The best way out of this dilemma would be the return of the third pilot.

The third pilot was a "roadblock" on the route from the cockpit door to the pilots and the controls.
The inclusion of a third pilot means that there would never be less than two pilots on the flight deck.
Pilots work at 25% of their maximum capacity most of the time, 95% of capacity some of the time and on occasions, when things go wrong, at 125% of their capacity. The third pilot dropped that 125% back to 95% and made the whole operation safer.
The third pilot had a 3D view of everything the pilots were doing and what they were seeing on the instruments, a much better view than the pilots had of each other. The third pilot was often the first person to detect an incipient problem.
Somehow, having a third pilot on the flight deck moderated any opinions and actions of the two pilots, a stabilizing influence.

Incidentally the third pilot increased the number of new jokes on the flight deck by 33%
Long time lurker here who joined after an incident as a pax on an old 737 operated by MAH as it came into land at KUL. This was shortly before the MH370 and I have lurked ever since, but I want to come in on Boing's post above.
As a passenger of many years standing as I'm an old fart, i've NEVER been comfortable with the 2 pilot arrangement and removal of the flight engineer. You don't need to be a pilot or psychiatrist or something to realise this, it's simply counter-intuative.
There may be some good that comes out of this tragedy, if only if it draws people's attention to the flawed idea of having a cabin attendant as a '3rd person'. How fundamentally flawed is this? So, we have all these safeguards to prevent 'terrorists' doing mischief but allow them to become cabin crew with possible access to an axe behind a single pilot's napper? It's a quick (and cheap) fix, but in my view risks / may cause a clearly discernible 'unintended consequence'. If we go down the one person in the cockpit route then in reverse order of preference it has to be: - 1) Senior flight crew / Purser only; 2) pilots able to access toilet facilities without leaving the flight deck; 3) revert to a 3 pilot flight deck. The last is by a country mile the best alternative but may be the most expensive.
I'd just like to address those posters shouting about costs and the public's demand for 'cheap' tickets. The public doesn't demand cheap tickets. (most of) the public want the cheapest fares available. Should I ever be offered the possibility of flying for a few dollars less on a plane with less stringent safety requirements I know what I would do... I'd WILLINGLY pay extra to travel with a 3 man crew up front, every time, no question.
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Old 29th Mar 2015, 02:10
  #2449 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2000
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Originally Posted by Mr Optimistic View Post
Does it really matter? The guy took the plane into the ground using the automatics he was trained to use. We are all vulnerable to the calculated actions of those we rely on. No need to invoke spectres of evil, human beings all have weakness's.
I thought this was a forum for professional pilots? If you understood the implications of what I posted, then yes it does matter.
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Old 29th Mar 2015, 02:21
  #2450 (permalink)  
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Very well said, thank you sir.
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Old 29th Mar 2015, 02:25
  #2451 (permalink)  
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training wheels, if I read your intent correctly, you are addressing the potential of a bad timing event wherein after the Captain headed to the loo, a decompression event, or a perceived one, arose that the CP felt he had to handle. And, sadly, didn't handle it too well. (Or perhaps another kind of malfunction?)

A thought to go along with this: above 25K, but not on O2 while the Captain was away.

Am I following you well enough?

FDR data might provide some insight as to whether this line of inquiry has some data points that align ... so those who are voicing frustration with all of this public discussion with no FDR data known to be available are asking a valid question: why the early conclusion?
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Old 29th Mar 2015, 02:49
  #2452 (permalink)  
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Psychologists say since years the western society is becoming more and more narcistic and sociopathic. The Medias are celebrating these characters, either they are pop stars or politicians. I read Lubitz was obsessed with flying, beeing a pilot. So he had no escape path for his career in mind if he looses his medical?
Perhaps the treating doctors failed to see this coming problem.
I know pilots who started further education during their career just not to be dependent on their medical, business administration or technical stuff for aviation management for example. They even don't need to change their company. I remember one SAR pilot who got trained as mechanic as he loved his unit so much. Just in case he was not fit to fly.
We all have resonable choices not to create a one way dead end road with our careers, especially pilots should think that way, beeing trained to see the wider picture.
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Old 29th Mar 2015, 02:53
  #2453 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by janeczku View Post
French authorities have set a world record for the swiftest accident investigation in the history of commercial aviation.
Who needs more than 48 hours to investigate an air crash anyway? The french authorities certainly don't think they do.
Come on. The media releases are not coming from an aviation investigation body. They are coming from a completely separate criminal investigation body.

The final 9/11 investigation took ages. No one criticised Pres Bush for describing it as a terrorist action that same day. Because it was completely clear that is what it was.

The Police would not be making such media releases on the world stage if they were not 100% confident.

Please don't underestimate the skill and competency of people from a different professional background just because it is unfamiliar to you.

Captain left the deck (so all was ok), then descent initiated, no communications from aircraft, and did not let Captain back in.

Now I guess there are possible barely conceivable alternative explanations. Maybe the copilot was hit in the head by a metor and was left unconscious but breathing, and his arm spasmed ank knocked the FD. I guess that's possible.

But all alternative explanations would be very long odds, and I guarantee all the purists "wanting all the facts" would not bet $1000 on these.

Like MH370, the facts point clearly to deliberate action. Sometimes 2 + 2 really does = 4. Sorry, but sometimes it simply does.

If recovered, the FDR will add some useful detail. But it will almost certainly be a minor edit rather than a complete rewrite of the explanation we have at the moment.

Please also put yourselves in the position of the grieving next of kin of those murdered. They want information released in a transparent manner as soon as authorities are confident in the explanation. And they are damn well entitled to it.
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Old 29th Mar 2015, 03:05
  #2454 (permalink)  
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Road-Runner fact-finding

The problem, slats11, with your argument, is two-fold. First, in France (presumably you are aware of this, but not everyone else necessarily will be), inquiries into civil aviation accidents are much more likely to become criminal matters than in most all other countries. That is, the French regard a civil aviation accident as almost, or nearly, always, a criminal matter from the jump. What this means is that the criminal investigators are MORE, rather than less, well-acquainted with the procedures, standards, and requirements of fact-gathering and fact-finding. At the very least, the pronouncements should have included significant cautions against regarding the presently known facts as conclusive. Second, the procedures, standards and requirements established by the ICAO system do NOT countenance, I mean do NOT tolerate, a rush to judgment. Even leaving aside the fact that there are loads of individuals who do not accept official explanations of what happened on the 11th of September - and I am not defending their sanity or lack thereof - but even leaving them out of the picture, that event was of an entirely different nature. Civilians on the ground and civil society in general were attacked, as opposed to a single flight (as serious as the single flight incident is, still, very different). So statements attributed to Bush-43 do not disprove or counter-weigh against the deliberation expected of civil aviation authorities, whether conducted solely a civil inquiry or a criminal one as well. For heaven's sake, I have no idea where the FDR is or whether its data will be intact if and when it is found. But I do know if lawyers had entered this feeding frenzy in a public way - before the grisly task of recovering the remains of the victims has reached its sorrowful and morbid conclusion - howls of outrage would descend. The rush to judgment, while less outrageous, still is conduct unbecoming civil aviation authorities. And this is so EVEN IF the ultimate facts prove out to be exactly, totally exactly, as you have posited them to be. Process matters.
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Old 29th Mar 2015, 03:05
  #2455 (permalink)  
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Communicator, the drug issue might be very relevant, though just adding to the holes or giving the final kick. As they found drugs in his home, would be interesting which one. Big danger if psychotic people are missdiagnosed with "depression" ! Recepy for disaster. Once I had a "low mood" period , I simply had a hidden infection for a longer time as it turned out later. Can't remember the drug the doc gave me " just try this boy" ...
No suicide thoughts but I felt becoming completely disconnected to the world and myself. I stopped immediately and went to a different doctor who found the real issue.
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Old 29th Mar 2015, 03:30
  #2456 (permalink)  
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*WHICH* DRUGS - Cont'd

As they found drugs in his home, would be interesting which one.
Not just interesting, but CRUCIAL.

... if psychotic people are missdiagnosed with "depression" ! Recipe for disaster.
The problem is MUCH worse than this - even if depression etc. is correctly diagnosed, treatment with common "anti-depressants" can lead to suicidal impulses, (more rarely) psychotic episodes, mood instability, and other phenomena. The risk is particularly high after such drugs are DISCONTINUED.

Even non-psychotropic drugs - e.g. prescription pain killers, cough syrup, etc. - can have significant psychiatric effects.

Again - sorry to hammer the point - we need to know the name of EACH AND EVERY DRUG OWNED OR USED BY the dead Germanwings FO.
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Old 29th Mar 2015, 03:30
  #2457 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2015
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Originally Posted by training wheels
This turn happened before top of descent (according to FD24 raw data published elsewhere). Wouldn't such a turn off track (pull selected mode) be consistent with memory item procedures for an emergency descent?
They were right on the track. The crash occurred between the waypoints MAXIR and BLONA on the airway UN853 which consists of the waypoints LUSOL, BODRU, OKTET, IRMAR. Precisely it occurred between the waypoints BODRU and OKTET on the UN853, which corresponds to 025 MT. So it seems like there was not an emergency diversion.
According to the Aviation Herald the aircraft was found at approximate position N44.2705 E6.4289

Last edited by MartinAOA; 29th Mar 2015 at 13:16. Reason: Source
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Old 29th Mar 2015, 03:49
  #2458 (permalink)  
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training wheels: Wouldn't such a turn off track (pull selected mode) be consistent with memory item procedures for an emergency descent?
As per flightradar24 raw data
Between 09:30:52 and 09:30:55 we can see that the autopilot was manually changed from 38,000 feet to 100 feet
Which is consistent with time required to turn the knob (in 1000s). Possible 4-5 turns?
No, the buttons, lever that you turn. You turn several times according to how much altitude you want to lose. It's a deliberate thing. It can't be done automatically. Well, if his head was to hit it, maybe it'll move by a quarter of a turn, but it won't do anything. It won't turn it 15 times.
15 times is too much. What other inputs were done?
So, there is not only a deliberate altitude change that would be just suffice.

Last edited by _Phoenix_; 29th Mar 2015 at 04:37. Reason: added text
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Old 29th Mar 2015, 03:50
  #2459 (permalink)  
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To Communicator: So much for medical confidentiality..
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Old 29th Mar 2015, 04:06
  #2460 (permalink)  
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I'm not a pilot. I'm an epidemiologist. I had to wade in and say that the alleged association between SSRIs or other antidepressants and suicidal or violent behavior is a bit more nuanced than perhaps is being portrayed here in recent posts.

The problem is that people who seek out medical care for depression or other illnesses and are prescribed these drugs are already at a higher risk for these behaviors. To state that "In other mass murder/suicide incidents, psychotropic drugs played a role" is not quite accurate. The persons involved may or may not have taken antidepressants, but this does not mean the drugs caused the behavior. The scientific literature on the subject is complicated but overall seems to indicate that the drugs don't cause suicidal or violent actions in adults.

I hasten to add that infowars is an extremely poor site for obtaining health information. Mr. Jones likes to promote such nonsense as vaccines causing autism, etc. In addition, the TIME magazine article linked has a major flaw. In it, they report data from the FDA Adverse Event Reporting System (FAERS). This is a passive reporting system that states right on the front page that none of the reports prove causality. There is quite a low standard of reporting--any consumer can send in an alleged adverse event to a drug. The good part of the FAERS system is that it's an excellent brute-force screen for adverse events that weren't picked up during FDA approval. The bad is that anything at all can be reported and subsequently misinterpreted by people, such as the author of the TIME article, who don't understand its limitations.

What does this have to do with Lubitz? I very much doubt that antidepressants caused him to deliberately fly a plane into a mountain. However, they may have caused another symptom, which caught my attention immediately--vision problems. If it's not a side effect of a drug, sudden vision problems in and of themselves, depending on their severity, might very well be cause for serious concern in a person as young as Lubitz. Of course we don't know the severity of the vision issue, but this particular symptom could be a harbinger of something far worse.
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