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Airbus A320 crashed in Southern France

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Airbus A320 crashed in Southern France

Old 29th Mar 2015, 11:02
  #2501 (permalink)  
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Totally agree with that. No ability to identify where the real threats and danger lie.


Even when we know exactly where they are and where they aren't.

Anxieties.com | How safe is commercial flight?
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Old 29th Mar 2015, 11:19
  #2502 (permalink)  
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If I was a captain would I leave a stranger alone in the FD and then lock myself out? Even if against my better judgement? I suppose I would have to if SOP dictates it?
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Old 29th Mar 2015, 11:33
  #2503 (permalink)  
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Psychometric Testing

I'm interested the way it is being suggested by the media that psychometric tests are the answer, and likewise Lufthansa claim all their pilots undertake regular psychometric test, clearly the tests don't work.

Psychometric tests fall into two areas:

(a) APTITUDE & ABILITY. This is to ensure the person has the ability and aptitude to succeed in initial pilot training, or conversion course.

(b) PERSONALITY. This test tries to map the person's personality, for example, 16 PF (16 personality factor). I have always been doubtful about such tests, I'd like to see the evidence that they have any validity.

Having said that, I fail to see how psychometric tests will ever detect underlying psychological and psychiatric problems and I believe that psychometric tests will be used as a a knee jerk reaction to satisfy the general public and authorities.

The way forward is to take a more holistic approach and a better awareness and understanding of those who we work with through HF/CRM and HP&L training programmes.

Here in the UK, I don't believe we have such tight privacy rules as Germany, according to the British Medical Association a General Practioner (doctor) can breach medical confidentiality, if they thought the patient could endanger others.

In the UK on renewal of a medical, you simply self disclose when and why you have seen a doctor since you last medical. Over twenty five years, I'm not aware my GP has ever been contacted, or that the CAA have ever seen my medical records.

However, in the UK our National Health Service (NHS) patients records are held electronically (unless you opt out), this holds all information on all medical treatment for an individual. So the simple answers here in the UK is that prior to a medical an AME (Authorised Medical Examiner) could access the patients records online.

The next point is should intemperate acts be immediately notified to the AME, this was first put forward at a conference in Dublin in the mid nineties, but was opposed at the time, not least by myself. However the present situation in the UK is that if an individual in the UK holds a firearms licence, my understanding the moment the police caution, arrest or charge an individual, their firearms licence is revoked until further investigation.

Oddly if an airline pilot is arrested for example an drink driving or a drugs offence in the UK, and he or she tells the police they are an airline pilot, my understanding they will notify the CAA, but if they don't tell the police their correct profession, the police have no reason to contact the CAA. So unlike the holder of a firearms licence, the problem is not flagged up! On that basis, it would seem sensible that there is a mechanism that certain criminal events can be flagged up, as they may be an indication of a lack fitness to fly, until verified by the AME.

Finally if the media reports are correct, if Lubitz had has issues with depression and coping with stress, at such an early stage in his career, I question why he was ever allowed by Lufthansa to continue with his career. I appreciate my view might not meet with equal opportunities, but the employee must be fit for purpose.

Unfortunately in the UK there is a lot of political correctness in terms of equal opportunities which often leads to the 'wrong stuff' being appointed on the basis of a disability or ethnic origin. To give a brilliant example, couple of years ago, I observed a court hearing, and the District Judge had such a severe speech impediment that the respondent and his very young barrister (counsel) had to ask the judge on a number occasions to repeat what he had said (up to three or four times) which clearly angered the judge, to the detriment of the respondent. I just came away with the impression, that this judge should never have been appointed as a judge, for the same reason he should never pursued a career as an air traffic controller!!!
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Old 29th Mar 2015, 11:38
  #2504 (permalink)  
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How about mandating that the press and government educate and warn the public IN PROPORTION to the real dangers of the things that are killing them and if they don't...

then hold them responsible for KILLING the public by scaring the the living bejesus out of them over safe things and praying on their latent fears to sell advertising and for political grandstanding?!

If we are really talking about safety then nothing else would even come close to saving as many lives.

Now there's a truth pill.
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Old 29th Mar 2015, 11:55
  #2505 (permalink)  
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Incontrollable Anger not depression appears to be behind all these awful incidents like a young person venting his anger against a school by gunning down a school yard of innocent kids.

This appears to be the case with all these mass murders including this one. The label of depression does not do a service to the vast majority of people who suffer that at one point or another and would not hurt a fly only themselves
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Old 29th Mar 2015, 11:58
  #2506 (permalink)  
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Trick cyclist tests

If some sort of phsyological testing was mandated judging from the posts above 75% of the people offering opinions on this forum would be barred from the flight deck of airliners.
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Old 29th Mar 2015, 11:59
  #2507 (permalink)  
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Does anybody here have insight to the current medical situation in Europe, who is responsible for pilot "airworthiness"?

When I was on duty there, we had strict medical supervision by the airline doctors, who knew us quite well after a while. I now hear rumors that the responsibility for the medical fit-to-fly reasoning was moved by EU regulations to some anonymous authorities. I cannot believe this to be true, because it would be so stupid to take responsibility from the once having the duty of operations plus knowledge of the pilots and give it to some buttheads in some far away offices.
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Old 29th Mar 2015, 12:18
  #2508 (permalink)  
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Any pilot in any system should be able to come foreword with these issues. At any time if a pilot feels he is not fit to fly, he shouldn’t.

Any manager, be it a chief pilot or chief medical officer should appreciate when a pilot does this. It means that the pilot trusts the system and so it should be.
There has always been the same dilemma:
You call in "not fit to fly" for the first time and your decision will be lauded as "professional". You call in sick for the third or fouth time and may have a not so pleasant discussion with the chief pilot not much later...
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Old 29th Mar 2015, 12:19
  #2509 (permalink)  
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It looks as though Lubitz prompted the captain to go to the toilet. If so, this was very premeditated.

'Open the goddamn door!': Desperate final pleas of Germanwings captain emerge as black box transcript reveals Lubitz's repeated attempts to coax pilot into toilet | Daily Mail Online
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Old 29th Mar 2015, 12:21
  #2510 (permalink)  
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As RANTANPLANE said earlier - probably we will never know why....

In the mid-90's when I was out of work, I did some HAZMAT procedural reviews + updates in Russia for a FTSE 100 UK company's operations there....Met the Group CFO ( Finance Director in those days ) a couple of times who was blue-chip background, a top, top businessman, and genuinely nice guy....

Fast forward 10 years or so, and having a fairly new wife and young daughter and having had a fantastically successful business career in finance / investment banking, which had accumulated a personal wealth of £10 million plus, he threw himself under a train near Heathrow....

To this day, nobody knows why and, more importantly, there were absolutely no signs in both his private and personal life, even on the day itself, that this was coming....

Whatever the experts eventually determine as the reason for the FO's actions, without him there to answer himself, it can only be a guess at best....
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Old 29th Mar 2015, 12:27
  #2511 (permalink)  
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Out of principle I don't click through to the Daily Mail. I have no respect for their publication and they are not aviation-industry friendly.

Clicking through just adds to their hit count, which influences what they can charge advertisers.

Is there any other source?
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Old 29th Mar 2015, 12:33
  #2512 (permalink)  
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And asked whether he believed the crash that killed 150 people was the result of suicide, he said: 'People who commit suicide usually do so alone... I don't call it a suicide.'
You call it suicide above the comments from the prosecutor
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Old 29th Mar 2015, 12:34
  #2513 (permalink)  
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I'm not very sure of anybody's ability to look into somebody's instantaneous mind set bent on destroying themselves and others with them.

I would prefer to work on ways of mitigating such actions especially to others.

I have no problem with the unofficial release of the prelim results of this investigation to advise others who can take action towards this mitigation in a timely manner.

I just hate to think that a post 9-11 reaction created a new lethal -problem.
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Old 29th Mar 2015, 12:38
  #2514 (permalink)  
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Release of CVR Data

A bad week for Air Safety has been made even worse by the irresponsible, premature and unnecessary release of CVR data. The need for this disclosure does not outweigh "the adverse domestic and international impact such action may have on that or any future investigations" (Annex 13)

I hope the BEA publicly distances itself from this debacle.
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Old 29th Mar 2015, 12:43
  #2515 (permalink)  
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Thankyou mods, things look a lot calmer now.

Two things:

Chicken is right. The misunderstandings surrounding SSRIs seem to be huge. I hope Mr Chicken will elaborate on that.

I can only speak for Sweden now.

There are some illnesses that our Doc HAS to report to Transportstyrelsen (our gouvernment agency that oversees transport by air, rail, sea, road). These includes epilepsy, diseases affecting CNS system, dementia of all sorts, schizophrenia, ADHD, autism spectrum to name a few. This is nothing you can escape or beg the Doc to hide. These tings MUST be reported.

There are also a few things that Doc can report if s/he deems the patient to be a risk for transport security. This includes a few vision problems, psycothic episodes, suicidal thoughts, a few joint problems, and a range of other thing that Doc may consider dangerous.

If you have come under Transportstyrelsen scrutiny, there are ways out. If the illness or syndrome is transient in nature (like temporary suicidal thoughts or joint problems) you are being followed up on a regular basis until Doc clears you and you get your licence back. The same with ADHD and autism spectrum. You are being monitored for a while with regular follow ups and if Doc says everything's A-OK you're green to go. It has to be a specialist in the field that clears you though. If you had mental problems, it needs to be a psychiatrist. Vision problems - an eye doctor. Cancer: onchologist and so on.

One more thing: I would like to agree with Pace. People who do this kind of thing have a mindset more like school shooters than being depressed.
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Old 29th Mar 2015, 13:01
  #2516 (permalink)  
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Mr Snuggles

This is the problem I see that no category of illness has been diagnosed on this individual yet a media induced blanket diagnosis will lead to a Witch hunt on pilots! Who will pay for those extra tests? And what are those test for?

We especially in corporate jets pay our own medicals which with all the normal tests are already now very expensive.

We already see knee jerk reactions and unthought out reactions to CC being put on flight decks to appease the lack of confidence in the Airlines that this incident has caused

Was this guy a psychopath? what is his particular condition that caused him to take out 150 innocent lives in a mass murder obviously with NO consideration for those poor people in his care? Depression ? I think not! It appears to be totally premeditated and planned just awaiting the opportunity

This is all far to vague and not specific Are there tests which can pin point a Specific condition that would make someone knowingly murder 150 people ? What is that condition? that is what needs to be identified and protected against not whether you have had an argument with the girlfriend or going through a divorce! Thats normal life

Last edited by Pace; 29th Mar 2015 at 13:29.
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Old 29th Mar 2015, 13:01
  #2517 (permalink)  
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And if you are a JetBlue co-pilot who has good cause to lock out the Captain?

There is no solution to this dichotomy. The failure wasn't with the cockpit door, the failure was elsewhere.
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Old 29th Mar 2015, 13:11
  #2518 (permalink)  
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German employment law

As I stated before, the German employment law is to blame in the fist place. The FO had a motivation to conceal his health issues from his employer. He did it on purpose AND was aided by German employment law.

Under German employment law it is the responsibility of an employee to inform an employer if they were deemed unfit to work. An employer(DLH/GWI in this case) do not have the right to ask for medical information from any employee. It is their responsibility to tell their superior, to tell their employer if they are sick. Even doctors could not step in as the data would be protected.
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Old 29th Mar 2015, 13:15
  #2519 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by AmuDarya View Post
MONTREAL-- The International Federation of Air Line Pilots’ Associations (IFALPA) deplores and condemns yesterday's leaking of certain elements of the Cockpit Voice Recorder (CVR) of the Germanwings flight 4U9525.

Not only do these leaks contravene the internationally agreed principles of accident investigation confidentiality set out in ICAO Annex 13, they are also a breach of trust to all those involved in the investigation and to the families of the victims. Furthermore, leaks of this nature greatly harm flight safety since they invite ill-informed speculation from the media and the general public and discourage co-operation with investigators in future accidents.

IFALPA once again stresses that the sole purpose of a CVR is to aid investigators in determining the factors leading to an accident and not to apportion blame or be used outside of its safety context. CVR details should only be publicly released following a thorough and complete investigation of the events that occurred, and not prematurely during the course of the field portion of the accident investigation, underway for less than 48 hours.

Leaking premature, unanalyzed, and partial CVR recordings, which lack the context of the entire body of factual investigative data, severely interferes with the investigative process, and can only lead to early conclusions on what exactly occurred during the time leading up to the accident. Any other use of CVR data is not only invalid, but is an unacceptable invasion of privacy best described as a search for sensationalism and voyeurism of the worst kind.

It is vital for the investigating body to ensure all information under their control is properly handled until the completion of the investigation.

In this early stage of the investigation, many critical questions remain to be answered, and IFALPA stresses the need for an objective accident investigation process through the collection of all the facts needed to draw an accurate analysis of events. Once again, IFALPA’s resources are at the disposal of the Accident Investigation Agencies to achieve these aims.

Note: The International Federation of Air Line Pilots’ Associations represents in excess of 100,000 pilots in more than 100 countries world-wide. IFALPA’s mission is to be the global voice of airline pilots, promoting the highest level of aviation safety and security world-wide and providing services, support and representation to all of its Member Associations.
1. It has become abundantly plain from the release of more data from the CVR that this was not an accident therefore the rules for accident investigation no longer apply. This is now a criminal investigation of a mass murder.

2. It is also plain that the security rules in place in many airlines and enabled by technology, are not sufficient to prevent this type of event recurring. It is therefore urgent to ensure that all air carriers and regulatory authorities are immediately aware of the issues and can take action that they see fit to mitigate the actual safety risk to their passengers and aircraft. This approach of provision of information for immediate mitigation of a risk is standard practice even in an accident investigation.

IFALPA needs to get off its high horse and think about what has been published and what IFALPA should do to assist mitigation of an actual risk. As is often the case in criminal investigations, which this now is, the investigators have not leapt to judgment on guesses and have a lot more information from the CVR which had not been made publicly available when IFALPA wrote their letter. Their letter in hindsight may not look particularly well judged.
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Old 29th Mar 2015, 13:49
  #2520 (permalink)  
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It is therefore urgent to ensure that all air carriers and regulatory authorities are immediately aware of the issues and can take action that they see fit to mitigate the actual safety risk to their passengers and aircraft
Whoa there, runaway steed. And what 'actions' may they be? And how will they 'mitigate risks'?

The whole problem is that nobody knows what the 'right actions' may be. The cockpit door policy post 9-11 was not fully thought through, as we can all see. (Some of us did warn the authorities.) So why rush in with new proposals, when these new ideas are equally fraught with unintended consequences? See my post here.

(A reply to my post.)

And nobody has replied to my primary question yet.

Would you want a nuclear power plant to recruit anyone from the streets, give them a few weeks training, and then place them in charge of the nuclear power plant's control room? And give them full authority to overpower the power station's highly trained controllers, whenever they feel like it?

That is what the CAA and various airlines are proposing. Is this sensible? Has anyone thought this through?

Last edited by silverstrata; 29th Mar 2015 at 13:50. Reason: typo
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