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MH17 down near Donetsk

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MH17 down near Donetsk

Old 30th Jul 2014, 11:11
  #1021 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by KatSLF
Why would leading edge not be primed? if it's painted it needs undercoat, doesn't it?
Wing leading edges on most modern passenger jets are not painted. (Same for the stabiliser and engine cowl leading edges) Hence no primer. It's to do with them being heated to prevent ice build up. Bare metal conducts heat better. Or so a 767 wrench-monkey told me.

Last edited by LiveryMan; 30th Jul 2014 at 11:32.
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Old 30th Jul 2014, 11:38
  #1022 (permalink)  
 
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Rolls Royce Logo

This side has photos of 9M-MRD.

9M-MRD Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777-2H6(ER) - cn 28411 / ln 84 - Planespotters.net Just Aviation

Chronologically ordered, most recent above.

It's definitely the Engine Logo! Port or starboard?

How that part separated and remained close to the front fuselage - while the engine remained attached to the wing - is hard to imagine.
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Old 30th Jul 2014, 12:09
  #1023 (permalink)  
 
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Shrapnel could easily have hit the cowling, damaged a latch or two allowing the cowling to open and thus depart the premises.
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Old 30th Jul 2014, 12:10
  #1024 (permalink)  
 
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mh17

ole-ole
Engine disintegrated (blew apart)
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Old 30th Jul 2014, 12:30
  #1025 (permalink)  
 
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Engines have let go on the 777 before, sometimes in spectacular fashion, and have never caused the cowl to separate from the engine. Though admittedly, none had been attached to a plane shot out of the sky at the time.
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Old 30th Jul 2014, 12:41
  #1026 (permalink)  
 
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The only frame on the nacelle is at the inlet side, forward of the fan housing (and attached to it by multiple bolts, which I can not see in the picture). The thrust reverser has two half-circular frames, but I would expect more systems parts installed to it, which are not present. Looking at the RR logo, I would assume this is a piece of the forward inlet frame. It is highly unlikely that engine debris would hit it, so I would assume shrapnel damage from the front side as most probable. On page 6 of this brochure you can see the according frame in the lower left picture.
Fits the other damage, if this is the port side engine nacelle frame.
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Old 30th Jul 2014, 12:43
  #1027 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by KatSLF

However these pieces I thought might be engine/fan, Retired54 is thinking missile guidance fins??

edge-on view
https://secure.flickr.com/photos/jer...57645908125941
top side
https://secure.flickr.com/photos/jer...57645908125941
turned over, bottom view
https://secure.flickr.com/photos/jer...57645908125941
Check out the photos on Page 8 of this report on the fan blade failure of an RR engine. https://www.atsb.gov.au/media/33974/tr200100445_001.pdf

Looks quite similar to the part in the photos above.
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Old 30th Jul 2014, 12:47
  #1028 (permalink)  
 
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article

Article published today by former airline pilot Peter Haisenko
http://www.anderweltonline.com/wisse...alaysian-mh17/
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Old 30th Jul 2014, 12:50
  #1029 (permalink)  
 
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parts of engine cowling?







Last edited by Mudman; 30th Jul 2014 at 13:30. Reason: Fixing incorrect links
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Old 30th Jul 2014, 12:51
  #1030 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by LiveryMan View Post
My two pence on the "skid marks" on the wing: There are images of bare metal sporting a green "skid mark" on it. Metal that is not primered (leading edge of the wing, for example), so I doubt the marks are actually the primer.

I warrant that after the missile went bang, what was left of the none explosive parts hit the wing as they began the fall back to earth. With the forward motion of the aircraft, the wing probably travelled into their path. Either that, or it is damage from the explosive shrapnel.
Ditto, the skidmark doesn't appear to me the making of a high speed ballistic impact.
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Old 30th Jul 2014, 12:55
  #1031 (permalink)  
 
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Machine gunfire?

Interview OCSE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ze9BNGDyk4
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Old 30th Jul 2014, 12:58
  #1032 (permalink)  
 
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The back of the roof/cargo bit

imgur: the simple image sharer

a full back image shows STA numbers, which is the spars or ribs that go all around the "tube". So the same number can be roof or cargo bay or either wall. STA number was used for identifying the location and WSJ themselves wavered about it in different editions. The colour being white, I vote for roof.

imgur: the simple image sharer
centre image is the rest of the roof over business class, folded over on the port wall. The open section is the door in front of the wing; the section broke clean at rivet line behind the first porthole.


bottom is Missile fin???
most images of BUKs show them very green, including fins, maybe a white tip. But I found some that have shorter side fins and larger tail fins, in BARE METAL, so those strange bits of metal are possibles.
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Old 30th Jul 2014, 12:59
  #1033 (permalink)  
 
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parts of engine cowling?
First picture? possible, the air inlet/outlet should be easily identifyable. Might be cabin interior as well.
Second picture? no. Should be composites, not metal. This is fuselage debris.
Third picture? probably a Railroad crossing...(or the wrong link)
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Old 30th Jul 2014, 13:39
  #1034 (permalink)  
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On further thought, the diagram presented by OleOle shows a port quarter missile path.

If that is the case, could that diagram show the missile came from Government held terrain? As it purports to show a passing shot it suggests that the aircraft was the missile engagement zone for about 4-5 minutes.

Such a long time in the MEZ would thus suggest sufficient time to determine that the target was a fast high flyer and probably not a legitimate target. OTOH it could have been considered a high altitude reconnaissance flight returning to the east.

Now I am not saying that this proves anything one way or the other and that the diagram could conceivably be disinformation.
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Old 30th Jul 2014, 13:55
  #1035 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by KatSLF View Post
Some pages back someone was looking for the photo of a green o-ring they thought might be part of the missile.

https://secure.flickr.com/photos/jer...57645790319631

It was in the Tail debris field.
For Buk, the missile diameter would be 0.4m. Gut feeling is that this ring looks a little small, but very difficult to tell as there is not much in the picture to give scale (grass comes in lots of sizes...).

This photographer has taken a huge number of excellent pictures of the crash site, but I can't help thinking I really want to buy him a ruler...
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Old 30th Jul 2014, 14:26
  #1036 (permalink)  
 
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diameter would be 0.4m.
Looks about right. The rod in the picture is a galley or toilet or wardrobe upper attachment, diameter of the rod end housing would be around 25 mm. So 0.4m might even be a little small.
Of course a ruler would be a little more precise...
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Old 30th Jul 2014, 14:45
  #1037 (permalink)  
 
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Question BLOCKING ACCESS TO MH-17

FWIW Donetsk, Ukraine (CNN) -- International investigators' quest to carry out their duties at the crash site of the downed Malaysian airliner hit another roadblock Wednesday: land mines, according to Ukrainian officials.

Ukraine's National Security and Defense Council claims that "terrorists" -- the term it uses to describe rebels -- have set up firing positions and laid mines on the access road to the crash site of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17.

This makes the work of international experts "impossible," the agency said.

Dutch investigators in Ukraine did not cite mines specifically but announced Wednesday that unsafe conditions kept their contingent from visiting the crash site for the fourth straight day.

ABOVE FROM CNN

Ukraine officials: Rebels plant mines near MH17 site - CNN.com
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Old 30th Jul 2014, 15:54
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OSCE Interview - Machine Gun

Rageye,

From the interview with Michael Bociurkiw,

There have been two or three pieces of fuselage that have been really pockmarked. It almost looks like machine gun fire. Very, very strong machine-gun fire that has left these unique marks that we haven't seen anywhere else. We have also been asked for example have we seen any examples of missile? No we haven't that's the answer and even if it was there we don't have those trained eyes to pick that out, but now there are experts here who would be able to.

Michael Bociurkiw is clearly not an expert and admits that in the video interview. He is clearly just highlighting as a non-expert holes that to him looks like machine-gun fire. I expect that if you showed him images from A-10 Warthog with SAM warhead damage then he would describe the damage as looking like "machine-gun fire".
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Old 30th Jul 2014, 17:13
  #1039 (permalink)  
 
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rageye

Article published today by former airline pilot Peter Haisenko
http://www.anderweltonline.com/wisse...alaysian-mh17/
The article is BS.
It is true, where the material is two layered in the enforced cockpit section the inner layer looks perforated from outside to inside and the outer layer is bent to the outside, as if a bullet has been shot from the inside.
The explanation is simple to understand.

When the hot fragments of the warhead (they are very hot, glowing at the beginning) hit a single layer of metal, they just penetrate, they nearly melt through. All the expansion of gases the fragment causes goes to the inside.

If the fragment meets a doubled layer metal construction the first sheet again is perforated, but at the same time a lot of pressure is building up between those two sheets of metal due to expanding gases and melting of parts of the first metal, thus bending the edges of the inlet hole to the outside. Then the second metal sheet is penetrated. This principle is used to protect armored vehicles by using multiple sheets of metal layers instead a thick one.

And this pilot in the article has no idea of how an air-to air gun is used and where a pilot intending to shoot down an airliner would aim at. A head on path with a closure rate of 1500 km/h to hit the cockpit area from the front quarter (like the damage would suggest) would be the last maneuver some pilot would try.

He would be better to comment on thing he has a basic understandig.

Last edited by RetiredF4; 30th Jul 2014 at 19:40.
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Old 30th Jul 2014, 17:44
  #1040 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by TwoOneFour View Post
Just a thought, but a detonation in the midpoint (around the region of the engine) would have sent debris in both directions along your green line.
No. It is not like a shell burst that is reflected in a spray around the burst point. It is more akin to shotgun pellets that are projected forward and expand like a cone.

As I said before, the fuzing is designed to detonate before the target to give the optimum spread of shrapnel as it reaches the target.

If the frag damage is limited to a small area then is shows they were extremely unlucky.

Last edited by Pontius Navigator; 31st Jul 2014 at 09:56.
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