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MH17 down near Donetsk

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MH17 down near Donetsk

Old 25th Jul 2014, 13:54
  #941 (permalink)  
 
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Perhaps this is the correct position for that frame? Port side aft window rotated.

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Old 25th Jul 2014, 14:12
  #942 (permalink)  
 
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Temperatures high enough to pit the remaining glass. It amazes me those window bolts have simply popped right off in tension. Incredible forces involved in what must be a very strong structure.
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Old 25th Jul 2014, 14:17
  #943 (permalink)  
 
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just newly registered and wanted to thank you for this very interesting thread.

I'm a former SAM operator and want to give you some information from the "other side":
Of course do SAM units train with the real peace time airpicture, so any airliner is a legitimate practice target. However safety rules dictate that no live rounds are available at that training and launching stations must be in standby mode.

The idea of a training exercise directly at the front and having your own flying assets playing game over a hot zone is just riduculous.

The SA-11 uses command guidance. Such weapons will definitely support a "command destruct", where the operator can destroy a missile in flight should it do something erratic or the target itself does no longer be clear under the ROE. This is definitely part of the training, recognition of such a situation and correct and timely reaction.

However we dont know how educated that crew was, setting up the system, tracking a target and launching a MSL is one thing, but applying ROE and behaving tactically correct is a world of difference.

@MudMan: Great work! If you rotate it furthermore 90 degrees clockwise it might also be the left front window???
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Old 25th Jul 2014, 14:24
  #944 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by LiveryMan View Post
Probably because that was carted off by the rebels seen cutting the cockpit up with petrol powered circular saws.

Why else would they have been cutting the wreckage up?
To recover bodies or parts of bodies ?
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Old 25th Jul 2014, 14:39
  #945 (permalink)  
 
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As the lower, center corner of both front windscreens is visible in this picture, and the skin joint (including a but strap) is missing for the first position, I assume the second one: port aft.
The only thing that is confusing, is that this window frame lies at the cockpit impact side, on the starbord side, while the other panel clearly very close to the explosion was far away. This frame would have broken away at a very early stage of the breakup, so why is it found with the lower forward fuselage section, when it clearly is not connected to the other debris? Something is fishy here... As well as the fact that the most important piece of debris is found leaning at a telegraph pole, positioned to be found. I can imagine somebody took it as a souvenir, and later gave it away when he realized what it could mean?
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Old 25th Jul 2014, 14:40
  #946 (permalink)  
 
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As well as the fact that the most important piece of debris is found leaning at a telegraph pole, positioned to be found
I read the person who discovered it found it in their garden behind the house and felt it important so they carried out to the road and propped it up for investigators to see.



It looks like a good portion of the upper fuselage ended up in this garden.

https://secure.flickr.com/photos/jer...s/14728364922/
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Old 25th Jul 2014, 14:45
  #947 (permalink)  
 
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Sawing the cockpit

@Hyperveloce

There is a video showing the 'sawing of the cockpit' and 'emergency rescuers' loading electronics into an emergency vehicle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNXf_HncM20#t=189
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Old 25th Jul 2014, 14:56
  #948 (permalink)  
 
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Looks more like they steal equipment from the galley to be re-used in their home, than higly specialiced spies removing important evidence.
Probably somebody sitting in fromt of a computer posting in a forum will never understand what a farmers or miners life in eastern ukrania means...
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Old 25th Jul 2014, 15:09
  #949 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Wantion View Post
@Hyperveloce

There is a video showing the 'sawing of the cockpit' and 'emergency rescuers' loading electronics into an emergency vehicle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNXf_HncM20#t=189
As a former professional photographer, there is another thing people probably don't get from the footage of a high-interest scene: there might be literally hundreds of journalists and photographers flocking the place. Even if some official is hostile towards the media, it doesn't mean they are preventing those entitled to be there - usually quite the opposite.

Last edited by Caygill; 25th Jul 2014 at 15:10. Reason: typo
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Old 25th Jul 2014, 15:12
  #950 (permalink)  
 
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A Russian website has a photo of the site at an earlier time. The site obviously was changed for reasons mentioned by Hyperveloce.

In that photo I'cant see the windshield frame.
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Old 25th Jul 2014, 15:14
  #951 (permalink)  
 
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@Volume

I agree ..its stealing..and yes I am sitting in front of a computer posting in a forum... for the rest we will have to agree to have our own viewpoint.

Good spot in your previous post...Ive been looking at that picture for some time...and did not see the centre frame and glass!...hope Mudman can superimpose it.
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Old 25th Jul 2014, 15:16
  #952 (permalink)  
 
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At a hearing of the ICAO on September 15, 1983, J. Lynn Helms, the head of the Federal Aviation Administration, stated: "The U.S.S.R. has refused to permit search and rescue units from other countries to enter Soviet territorial waters to search for the remains of KAL 007. Moreover, the Soviet Union has blocked access to the likely crash site and has refused to cooperate with other interested parties, to ensure prompt recovery of all technical equipment, wreckage and other material."
Anyone see a resemblance here?
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Old 25th Jul 2014, 15:16
  #953 (permalink)  
 
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How very understanding of you Volume. During collection of Air India debris, I met a relatively poor, old gentleman who in passing mentioned he had tried to burn a seat cushion in his fire place.


I don't think we ever found actual evidence of explosive device or effects on any of the recovered pieces.
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Old 25th Jul 2014, 15:40
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I see many people are curious about BUK operations without auxiliary radar(and command) vehicle so here it is how it operates autonomously, copied from russiadefence.net forum :

"You have to know few things about Buk. TELAR with missiles have only tracking radar and TV camera for back up. Crew in TELAR could recognize target only through TV camera and if sky was in clouds, that they could not make an ID of the target. Target ID with radar IFF and ID numbers for civil flight could be done through search radar, which for Buk is in special vehicle. Tracking radar doesn't make any ID of target. It only show the object in the air, which it lock. You could not distinguish in tracking radar, if it is civil plane, military plane, helicopter, missile, drone, etc. In the video you could see tracking radar scope picture at 6:44.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8X8dvKtBAQk

It is tracking radar scope picture from OSA, but in Buk from the eighties, radar scope picture is no different than in Osa or in other SAMs from that time. Actually even today are similar, only screens are more modern.

When you work in radar mode and your tracking radar lock the target and you launch the missile, than the system works automatically with radar and computer and operator could only watch the screen. Operator have to work with tracking radar only in case of ECM.

So, if sky was cloudy and Ukrainian Sukhoi escape in the cloud, than operator in Buk TELAR could only search and lock with tracking radar, where all objects in the sky are seen as a hill on the line. So without visual ID with TV camera he could not know, what he locked. Ukrainian Buk batteries have all components with battery command posts and search radars, so they have situation awareness picture from CP and they could know, which target is which without visual ID with TV camera."
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Old 25th Jul 2014, 15:40
  #955 (permalink)  
 
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Any idea on the beige box, that seems to have taken a shrapnel hit?

http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/drugo...4_original.jpg
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Old 25th Jul 2014, 15:50
  #956 (permalink)  
 
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There is a video showing the 'sawing of the cockpit' and 'emergency rescuers' loading electronics into an emergency vehicle.
The video does not show anything being loaded and driven away.
Yes, it suggests it, a shot pulled from the hours of rushes to best match a line in the script.
Evidently they couldn't find a better shot.
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Old 25th Jul 2014, 15:55
  #957 (permalink)  
 
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The video does not show anything being loaded and driven away.
Yes, it suggests it, a shot pulled from the hours of rushes to best match a line in the script.
Evidently they couldn't find a better shot.
You havn't watched the video, see 3:25. I would post a screen shot but I can't figure it out??

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNXf_HncM20#t=189
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Old 25th Jul 2014, 16:02
  #958 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by OleOle
Any idea on the beige box, that seems to have taken a shrapnel hit?

http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/drugo...4_original.jpg
Is that not one of the primary instrument displays (none are visible in the nose wreckage, only the standbys)?

It's definitely a screen of some sort, and it's the right colour.
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Old 25th Jul 2014, 16:37
  #959 (permalink)  
 
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Thanks, JamesT73J, TwoOneFour

Then the side with the smoldered whole is the top.

http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviatio.../3/0561319.jpg
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Old 25th Jul 2014, 16:39
  #960 (permalink)  
 
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Note that men shown in video referenced by Cappt are from Ukrainian Ministry of Emergency Situations (i.e. a division of the government in Kiev).
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