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Malaysian Airlines MH370 contact lost

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Malaysian Airlines MH370 contact lost

Old 21st Mar 2014, 13:00
  #6921 (permalink)  
 
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I have an ELT question.

On 121.5 if you crash, drop it or flick the switch or indeed if it activates itself due to a fault, the signal is instant.

What about on 406? It transmits data. Is that instant on activation also?
The difference between the 121.5 and 406.25 MHz is
1. when the search satellite passes over the ELT the 121.5 info couldn't be saved and would be transmitted down immediately, in case no LUT(local user terminal) was within the footprint of the satellite the information would be lost. 406.25 can be saved till a LUT comes within the satellite footprint.
2. The position is judged by the doppler shift generated by the satellite moving over the ELT. Accuracy of 121.5 is lower (said to be about 20 Sq miles) than 406.25 which has a higher frequency so the accuracy is higher ( said to be about 5 Sq miles)
3. the transmission contains a unique code which is part of an international database. the Tx contains this code and enables the identification of this tx source.
4. transmission time for all frequency is same, ie there is no delay in any frequency.
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Old 21st Mar 2014, 13:11
  #6922 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Razoray
O

Didnt mean to cause such a ruckus, but, are you saying they couldn't get locked out, or could they? Any questions are legitimate at this point.
no one is saying anything either way!!

for future flight safety some questions are NOT legitimate.
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Old 21st Mar 2014, 13:15
  #6923 (permalink)  
 
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quote -That MAS chief answer didn't sound like a confirmation of batteries on board to me. GobonaStick

a few pages ago, did post that CEO answered a specific Q from SKY news - cargo list? - CEO said some LI batteries NOT big ones.

List with investigators - true.

apparently dropped mention of mangosteens now.
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Old 21st Mar 2014, 13:16
  #6924 (permalink)  
 
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Sysconx

Quote from sysconx....
'I believe this to be a tragic event with all on board incapacitated. The Aircraft flew
on autopilot and landed on the surface of water with controlled descent and a flare without falling apart sinking to the bottom whole. The crew possibly tried to come to senses and mistakenly switched off the transponder, changed the digit from N to S on the Nav. With hypoxia setting in they though they were going to sleep and responded to the controller with "good night" sign off. All the passengers never once tried anything during the whole flight. Unaware or unconscious they never put up a fight to defend themselves. '

Once again it's amateur hour and all the FS types emerge.

Do you have the slightest notion of what you are talking about?

Are you saying that a B 777 reduced to emergency/RAT/ battery power took it upon itself to do a flapless, gear up autoland ditching in the Southern Ocean?

Do you think pilots in the middle of an emergency start user defining waypoints by latitude and longitude?

The amount of known facts in the public domain on this issue is tiny. The media has misreported the facts and added huge amounts of unfounded speculation. As for the Malayasian authorities, they appear to be the modern day aviation equivalents of the Keystone Cops. Please do not make it worse by putting up more stupid ideas entirely founded on stupidity. It is perfectly clear who knows what they are talking about (there have been some excellent contributions from some) and equally clear when someone knows absolutely nothing.

Rant almost over but one more thing, if that 'Razor...' character (the name should be a chilling warning on these matters) asks one more question about cockpit door procedures I'll be asking the mods to bar him from the site. This is NOT the place to discuss these matters for very obvious reasons.
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Old 21st Mar 2014, 13:19
  #6925 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by GarageYears
Quick question: Are the Aussie P3s equipped for AAR?
No, the P3 is not set up for AAR. It takes considerable crewing just to get to its endurance with on board fuel (~15hrs.).
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Old 21st Mar 2014, 13:33
  #6926 (permalink)  
 
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A few points on Search and Multinational Cooperation

From a few pages back:
There may well have been many warships out there but the radar operators are trained to take notice of a contact if it threatens the ship, ie... Flies towards it. Single contacts at high altitude on a constant heading are usually deemed friendly and ignored.
Not necessarily tagged as "friendly" ... but most likely not tagged as "hostile." (Ref: old NTDS symbology, if you get my drift.) Yes, I am nitpicking ... but if the Malaysian Air Force was using a similar methodology, a tagged COMMAIR contact (on its original flight planned course) would not necessarily become "of interest" if it changed course(no major status change as seen by the guy on the scope late one Friday night). Mil Radar Operators would not necessarily have all of ATC's info in front of them. This is an issue for the Malaysian Air Force to address regarding cooperation with their ATC. FWIW: 9-11 seems to have increased the cooperation and communication in the US between ATC and the USAF. Sometimes, it takes a novel event to open some previously closed doors. Coordination among the various nations in SEA between MIL/ATC .. there are politics involved.

surely not
A couple of (well probably 10-20 by now) pages back in this thread there was a post claiming some high ranking US Military official was 100% certain Pakistan was behind this and that within 24-48 hours it would become public.
I think you refer to the March 18 interview of retired Lieutenant General Tom McInerney(USAF) by Sean Hannity on Fox News. He's free to act as an "expert" for the media without sanction, regardless of how credible his hypothesis is, or isn't.

wewereborndrunk
Its looking more and more likely that if the plane did fly south that the US and Australia know exactly where this plan flew and went down.
Not bloody likely. If they knew exactly, they'd not be wasting time looking for it. They are still in SEARCH mode.
All this searching by the Australians in the South Atlantic is a bluff.
It's not the South Atlantic. It's the Indian Ocean (certainly the southern part of the Indian Ocean). Your disrespect of our friends in Australia is IMO out of line. The Aussies ought to be applauded for their efforts.

@Garage Years: A few pages back, AP-3C AAR was a confirmed as not a capability.

Thought: Lithium ion batteries and mangosteens: a deadly combination in a cargo hold? (Sorry, thought I'd toss in a little humor).

@ RazorRay: respectfully request that you learn how to take a hint.
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Old 21st Mar 2014, 13:38
  #6927 (permalink)  
 
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Appeal: Please Do Not Reveal Critical Security Info

Some one raised a very pertinent question about discussing cockpit door security procedures on an open forum. I believe that information that can reveal crucial security procedures related to aircraft operations such as access to vital areas, disabling any aircraft equipment by any manner, interfering with flight/cabin crew, ability to tamper with any equipment, etc. whether related to MH370 incident or not, must not be allowed on this forum. Posters and moderators please use caution, as innocent questions could be masking less than friendly intentions.
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Old 21st Mar 2014, 13:43
  #6928 (permalink)  
 
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Planes and ships converging

Originally Posted by Lonewolf 50
If they knew exactly, they'd not be wasting time looking for it. They are still in SEARCH mode.
Agree ..though sat spotted debris would have moved on or sunk by the time a/c arrived.

Ships not far behind...now if a Leeuwin class arrived and did some tricks...
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Old 21st Mar 2014, 13:50
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Any info on how search efforts are progressing in the northern arc?
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Old 21st Mar 2014, 13:50
  #6930 (permalink)  
 
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Bono:


I agree with you. Loose lips sink ships and crash planes.

so, anything you know from your work, keep it quiet.
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Old 21st Mar 2014, 13:51
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Razoray,

I imagine you are familiar with the recent Ethiopian incident where the FO decided to divert (alone in the cockpit ) from Roma to Geneve, you have the answer to your question there I believe.
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Old 21st Mar 2014, 13:51
  #6932 (permalink)  
 
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NO debris

Im still baffled there isn't a single piece of debris located. AF447 wasn't exactly a heavy impact and this still left some traces albeit 50 passengers or so, a tail section and other objects. I cant believe a single body has not been found? Nothing....im not insinuitating conspiracy theories here, but there must be something floating, i can't believe it sank in one piece with nothing floating to the surface?!
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Old 21st Mar 2014, 13:57
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Lots of good discussion but it is important that pilots do not give away security secrets about their operation. It can be seen in another part of PPRuNe that there have been close to 11 million views of this discussion.
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Old 21st Mar 2014, 14:03
  #6934 (permalink)  
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"security through obscurity"

Re: "Please Do Not Reveal Critical Security Info".

Coming from the IT world, it is always interesting to me to see these attitudes, which we refer to as "security through obscurity", and consider to be not-very-secure.

In designing secure systems in the IT world we (most of us) take one thing for granted - that the "attacker" *does* have full knowledge of how the system operates - everything apart from those *actual* secrets (e.g. passwords) that protect the system.

Moving on from that, it is considered beneficial (by many) to expose the workings of any system to full public scrutiny, on the basis that any flaws will be more likely to be spotted.

Whether or not that is an appropriate model for the aviation world is a different matter.

But I *will* observe that these "operational secrets" are not going to be hard to come by for a well-funded adversary.
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Old 21st Mar 2014, 14:03
  #6935 (permalink)  
 
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captains_log,

With respect, an aircraft descending at almost 10,300 FPM with little or no forward airspeed AF would certainly be in the "heavy impact" category. In the Alaska MD case it hit the water almost flat according to pilots who watched it, they said it was a large splash and then pretty much disappeared. Debris came after...
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Old 21st Mar 2014, 14:05
  #6936 (permalink)  
 
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Captains Log
Im still baffled there isn't a single piece of debris located. AF447 wasn't exactly a heavy impact
Descending at 10,912 feet/min into the ocean is not a heavy impact????
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Old 21st Mar 2014, 14:05
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wes, the old "phantom page" thing seems to have returned due to the immense traffic this thread is getting. Have run into about 7 different phantom pages in the past few days.
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Old 21st Mar 2014, 14:06
  #6938 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by captains_log
Im still baffled there isn't a single piece of debris located.

. . ., i can't believe it sank in one piece with nothing floating to the surface?!
In the former case the LKP was pretty accurate and the time late was small.

Here we have no real LKP and the time late is in days.
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Old 21st Mar 2014, 14:07
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Leeuwins

Lonewolf 50

The aussies have 2 -Leeuwin and Melville albeit based on the other side of Australia.

...and they can radar the ocean floor and come up with a picture as if there was no water on the floor

Each ship is fitted with a STN Atlas 9600 APRA I-band navigational radar.[1] The vessels are fitted with a C-Tech CMAS 36/39 hull-mounted high-frequency active sonar.[1] In addition, the ships carry an Atlas Fansweep-20 multibeam echo sounder and an Atlas Hydrographic Deso single-beam echo sounder, and a Klein 2000 towed sidescan sonar array.[1] The sonars and echo sounders allow the vessels to chart waters up to 6,000 metres (20,000 ft) deep.[2] There are three sets of davits fitted; although normally used to carry the 10.7-metre (35 ft) Fantome class survey boats, they can be configured for other small craft.[1] In addition, they carry a RHIB and two utility boats.[1] The Leeuwins are fitted with a helicopter deck for an AS 350B Squirrel helicopter (detached from 723 Squadron), although lack long-term hosting facilities.[1] They are armed with two single 12.7 mm machine guns.[2] Compliments Wikipedia

There is hope yet.

Last edited by brika; 21st Mar 2014 at 14:09. Reason: additional info
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Old 21st Mar 2014, 14:18
  #6940 (permalink)  
 
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I can't see how the autopilot would stay on after loss of all generators, there's a time lag for the rat to work. Anybody tried it in the sim.
If the aircraft sank in one piece the air in the wings would not be enough to keep it a float , especially as the cabin fills.
The wings however would be crushed by the water pressure and then still with trapped air inside floated up.
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