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Malaysian Airlines MH370 contact lost

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Malaysian Airlines MH370 contact lost

Old 21st Mar 2014, 14:19
  #6941 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by bono
Some one raised a very pertinent question about discussing cockpit door security procedures on an open forum. I believe that information that can reveal crucial security procedures related to aircraft operations such as access to vital areas, disabling any aircraft equipment by any manner, interfering with flight/cabin crew, ability to tamper with any equipment, etc. whether related to MH370 incident or not, must not be allowed on this forum. Posters and moderators please use caution, as innocent questions could be masking less than friendly intentions.

Originally Posted by Interested_Party
Lots of good discussion but it is important that pilots do not give away security secrets about their operation. It can be seen in another part of PPRuNe that there have been close to 11 million views of this discussion.

I think you all severely underestimate what the "Bad Guys" already know.

Many First Class or Business Class passengers have first hand knowledge simply by observing what goes on in plain view.

For others it is very easy to Google for information and the basics of flight deck security is readily available online.

SKYbrary - Flight Deck Security
Emergency Flight Deck Access. Most security systems have the facility for emergency access to the flight deck; such systems have safeguards built in to allow the flight crew to prevent access, for example by building in delays to the door opening such that the flight crew, if not incapcitated, can overide the lock release.
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Old 21st Mar 2014, 14:34
  #6942 (permalink)  
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CEO's answer today to L-I in cargo

Originally Posted by GobonaStick
don't hear the CEO confirming there were batteries on this flight, only that the airline carries them in general
I have my own recording from the live conf. Replayed and checked. Agree he did not say "this", however he did not say "general" either. The question was very specific to the a/c and cargo and it's impact. Not easy to dodge that by generalities I would think. However may be wrong on this.
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Old 21st Mar 2014, 14:40
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as you said the question was specific to mah370, so unless the answer was stated to be generic, it is reasonable to believe the answer was also specific to this aircraft.
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Old 21st Mar 2014, 14:48
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Originally Posted by brika
The aussies have 2 -Leeuwin and Melville albeit based on the other side of Australia.

and they can radar the ocean floor and come up with a picture as if there was no water on the floor

...There is hope yet.
I believe HMS Echo is steaming there, ETA next 48hrs(?); she has at least one sounding line (complete with lead weight) over the stern & a rumoured second over the starboard quarter but this has never been officially confirmed. In any case, IF there is anything down there she will find it.
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Old 21st Mar 2014, 14:53
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I looked through the spec of the Leeuwin. There is nothing there that can see the seabed 6000 metres down, despite what Wikipedia says. Unless they have a deep tow system for the sidescan and a suitable depth rated sidescan fish which I believe is unlikely. Its not something a coastal survey vessel would normally need.
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Old 21st Mar 2014, 14:58
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All they need is a hydrophone on a long cord to listen for the black box ping.
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Old 21st Mar 2014, 14:59
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Originally Posted by Alloyboobtube
The wings however would be crushed by the water pressure and then still with trapped air inside floated up.
This is questionable.

If the water was not too deep and the tanks were not crushed by the water pressure then they may well break free and float. I believe that was the case with the RNlN Atlantic that crashed off the west coast of Scotland. IIRC parts of the aircraft indeed surfaced after a day or two.

In very deep water, unless the wings broke off early in the descent before the pressure crushed the tanks then maybe. If it went very deep then I would expect the tanks to be crushed.

The other question is what would float. If fuselage was largely undamaged then there may be little escape of buoyant material.
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Old 21st Mar 2014, 15:02
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She will certainly be an added asset.

Data shows she has a record of finding things - eg on central Mediterranean surveying the approaches to the ports of Tripoli and Khoms on the coast of Libya to improve Admiralty charts of the area. She was looking for wrecks that might be hazards to shipping. In 10 days she found the wrecks of one liner, two merchant ships, one landing craft, two fishing vessels, two barges and two large sunken pontoons. She also found at least half a dozen lost shipping containers. The landing craft is believed to be the Libyan Navy Polnocny-class landing ship Ibn Qis, which was burnt out on exercise in 1978.

Albeit in shallower waters but believe she has deeper water capability.
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Old 21st Mar 2014, 15:05
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rate of descent. - not accurate.
if it had been in cruise when the aircraft or crew had a catastrophic event it would have been in trim with an ias of around 280knots. Assuming both engines flamed out at the same time then it would have descended at 280 knots plus a bit because of the lack of thrust vector from the underslung engines.
This probably gave a ROD in the order of 3000fpm..which might have fractionally decreased as it came into ground effect.
If this didn't happen and it went into a spiral descent it would have broken up in the air.
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Old 21st Mar 2014, 15:08
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Back to the North!

Ancient aviator here though still current. But I haven't flown in SE Asia since the mid 60s and that was with the Grey Funnel Line!

So in the FIR in question ( Malacca Straits) could you file a flight plan and pick up your IFR clearance once airborne?
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Old 21st Mar 2014, 15:10
  #6951 (permalink)  
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there has been talk of "survivors". While I for one am hoping that this may be the case, is it really feasible?
We can only hope. Although it would seem highly unlikely that there may be survivors we must not forget the Uruguayan Air Force flight with the Rugby team on board, over the Andes. It was over two months before two survivors made it over the Andes to civilisation to let people know. It will depend very much on where and how the aircraft landed.
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Old 21st Mar 2014, 15:14
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The pressure on the surface is 14.7 PSI. Every 33 feet down in the ocean equates to 1 atmosphere or an additional 14.7 PSI.

Forget a solid container like a cylinder which are normally pressurised to 2000 PS1 but no where near the limits where they would implode.

Take a Balloon filled with air on the surface! At 33 feet or an additional atmosphere the volume of air would be half.

At 66 feet it would be a 1/3rd. At 99 feet 1/4 and so on.
So the given lifting capacity of a volume of contained air would decrease accordingly.

if you took said balloon down to 99 feet and filled it at the outside pressure then that balloon would expand as it rose to lighter pressures as would its lifting ability.

Hence why a diver at 99 feet who has to make an emergency ascent holding his breath will have to let air out of his lungs on the way up to save damage and death in the ascent.
At 20000 feet the pressure would be approx 8900 PS1 Compared to 14.7 PSI at the surface or 1,360 times the pressure of air on the surface

So A Relatively soft sealed structure like a wing would collapse fairly shallow unless the air was expelled and replaced with water.
A pressure cylinder would not collapse unit 8000 to 10000 feet down but that is only a guess

Last edited by Pace; 21st Mar 2014 at 15:35.
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Old 21st Mar 2014, 15:18
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Air Marshals

Has there been any information regarding MAS's use of air marshals, and whether any were on Flt. 370?
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Old 21st Mar 2014, 15:25
  #6954 (permalink)  
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blind pew,

Are you B777 qual'd? I'm thinking, if t was in an ALT HOLD mode, it would, upon loss of power, try to maintain altitude until the stall warning when the A/P would disengage and it would start down trimmed at that speed.
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Old 21st Mar 2014, 15:27
  #6955 (permalink)  
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Air Marshals are an American idea generally I think.
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Old 21st Mar 2014, 15:28
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In a few hours it will be two weeks since MH370 disappeared. After two weeks, if it crashed into the Southern Indian Ocean, the savage seas in that area would have dispersed any remaining floating wreckage, and sunk most of it.

Chances of the "debris" spotted on the satellite pics being remnant icebergs, or an upturned hull of a wrecked boat? - Very High.
Chances of the "debris" being wreckage from MH370? - Very Low.
Chances of finding the aircraft in the Southern Indian Ocean when 14 days have passed and there's only a vague idea of its LKP? - Very, Very Low.

Malaysia Airlines MH370: No trace of debris in southern Indian Ocean after second day of searching - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

For those who have posted dream scenarios of "soft landings" or survivable landings in the mid-40 latitudes of the Southern Indian Ocean (equal to the Southern Ocean) - here's some vision of what it's like at sea level.
One day in three is fine, the wind is screaming most days, and the whitecaps and massive swell are constant.

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Old 21st Mar 2014, 15:33
  #6957 (permalink)  
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Galaxy Flyer, I was about to say the same thing. I'm a 777 captain, and I'm sure if you are in ALT HOLD, it would go back to the yellow band, and then descend to maintain the speed at min manoeuvring . Well, that's how I think it would happen, must check it out in the sim.
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Old 21st Mar 2014, 15:43
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Originally Posted by jcjeant
And for MH370 .. what do we have ... ?
Two supposed debris ... not a field ..... and the difference in days for the discovery is not so big ...
So .. I have a bad feeling and I'm not very optimistic ...
On the basis that pulling all comms, cutting an "interesting" path across FIR/radar/international boundaries [in what appears at least to be a deliberate act of avoidance] to then travel several 000's kms just to end up in the drink, albeit in the middle of nowhere, I'm inclined to agree with you at this stage.
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Old 21st Mar 2014, 15:43
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The Fansweep20 fitted to the RAN vessels is a shallow water system with a typical operating depth of 500m or so. From the surface in 3000m+ of water you need something around 12-24kHz to get any sort of decent compromise of swath width and resolution.

HMS Echo might have something more suitable
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Old 21st Mar 2014, 15:44
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Confirmation of previous Inmarsat 'pings'?

"We couldn't say what direction it had gone in, but the plane wasn't standing still because the signals were getting longer, i.e. further in distance from our satellite."

Inmarsat Senior Vice President Chris McLaughlin
This information seems to have been missed by most posters on here. That would suggest to me that hourly pings were actually recorded and not overwritten.
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