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Malaysian Airlines MH370 contact lost

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Malaysian Airlines MH370 contact lost

Old 21st Mar 2014, 12:08
  #6901 (permalink)  

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currawong

sorry, there is also nothing leading the the conclusion that there were no batteries involved. However, you can paint a likely scenario from it, much better that some highjack or heist or suicide.

Also, remember, oxygen containers were supposedly safe to transport in any aircraft. Until ValuJet....
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Old 21st Mar 2014, 12:08
  #6902 (permalink)  
 
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All data just needs to be stored outside the a/c. Including position data.
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Old 21st Mar 2014, 12:13
  #6903 (permalink)  
 
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Balaton
yes I agree but the CVR criteria comes from the days when pilots justifiably didn't trust management and the unions dictated the recording length and the ability to wipe it.
It was introduced in the UK after the Staines disaster in 1972 - sadly not a lot has changed if the recent Nat Geo program is anything to go by.
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Old 21st Mar 2014, 12:15
  #6904 (permalink)  
 
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Hunter58,

not on the same page anymore.

The Valuejet oxygen generators were DG then, as they are now.

They were on board illegally. End of story.
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Old 21st Mar 2014, 12:15
  #6905 (permalink)  
 
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CVR capacity

the CVR device also has to survive going in at high speed, being submerged , being on fire. If you can meet all the survival requirements more capacity would be good.
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Old 21st Mar 2014, 12:28
  #6906 (permalink)  
 
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Also, remember, oxygen containers were supposedly safe to transport in any aircraft.
That´s why they were probably marked as hazmat...
e.g. History Of ValuJet Airlines
it was determined that oxygen generators, used in aircraft passenger service unites and classified as "HAZMAT" was on board flight 592 and had been loaded in the forward cargo compartment.
Maybe a lot of people supposed that this was purely another authorities bureaucratic nonsense, but those who knew their stuff never supposed them to be safe...
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Old 21st Mar 2014, 12:28
  #6907 (permalink)  
 
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Final destination

Some few hundred posts ago….some said the AP would result in a descent rate of 300fpm to maintain flight until it gave up.
Don’t recall IMMarsat giving details of altitude of pings, simply distance. IF already taken into account, please delete this post and would be grateful for link.
Questions:
1 Given the shape of earth, it would depend on the altitude and distance of a/c to be able to talk to satellite, which means there is a minimum and a maximum altitude for satellite horizon areas, according to the distance. True?
2 If true, then would this not change the projected line of flight -from point of fuel exhaustion and altitude (PFEA) into a much broader lane? If true, then
a) how long would it take a/c to touch sea level after George has done his job, taking into account possible altitudes (max to min)?
b) what would be the maximum possible lateral deviation of a/c from PFEA to sea level, taking into account one engine running on air before the other (which means the lane gets broader still)?
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Old 21st Mar 2014, 12:34
  #6908 (permalink)  
 
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A tad pedantic yes .. but ft/s is a velocity. Ft/s/s is an acceleration. I'm not sure where the 3.5 value comes from (a pedant would label it as -3.5) but it seems awfully small to me.
A bit of confusion here.

In this context, 3.5 ft/s is indeed a velocity - specifically it's the change in longitudinal velocity required to activate the ELT, provided that's also accompanied by a minimum longitudinal acceleration of (minus) 2G.

At least that's the simplified version, there is actually a curve of G-vs-duration that defines the exact conditions required for activation.
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Old 21st Mar 2014, 12:42
  #6909 (permalink)  
 
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As to the Lithium-Ion batteries there have been concerns for a while and discussions between IFALPA, IATA, ICAO. For now they are acceptable to be carried in devices. i.e. we all want our iPads delivered on time, eh? It is not unusual to be flying with maybe 3 tonnes of the batteries in their devices.

Sorry, not picking on anyone specifically but here is a statement from further up that is an example of assumption based on no facts what-so-ever that should not be made and we are seeing a lot of that:
"If MH379 was operating in LNAV which seems to have been agreed"
Surely it is not up to us or anyone to agree about the flight conduct without facts?
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Old 21st Mar 2014, 12:43
  #6910 (permalink)  
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Red face Doh!

BBC reporter at Pearce "And some of the planes even come back after dark"

Assume they leave the search area at last light which may be about 2 hrs later than at Pearce then they will get home about 6 hours after dark.

The following day, to get there at first light they will need to take off about 2 hours before dawn.

Don't they think? If they can't think why don't they ask why the planes land so late?
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Old 21st Mar 2014, 12:48
  #6911 (permalink)  
 
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CVR questions
A couple of questions about the CVR:

(a) Does the CVR record even when absolutely no voice input is being fed into it? For example, if there was complete silence for the last 5 hours of the flight, would it actually record this silence for the final 2 hours?

(b) If the CVR was disabled, would it continue to contain data from the previous 2 hours up to the point it was disabled? Or does disabling it cause the data to be wiped?
(a) Yes - it records continuously. The aircraft sounds are just as important as voice input. Typically there are 4 tracks - cockpit area mic, Capt mic, FO mic and I think 3rd Crew mic?

(b) Yes, but disabling it is only possible by pulling the CB, which in the T7 is in the E/E compartment. It is possible to erase the data, but that is only possible when on ground (WOW) and the engines are both shutdown.
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Old 21st Mar 2014, 12:50
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Originally Posted by razoray
Didnt mean to cause such a ruckus, but, are you saying they couldn't get locked out, or could they? Any questions are legitimate at this point.
It appears the reaction answered your question.
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Old 21st Mar 2014, 12:51
  #6913 (permalink)  
 
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That BBC reporter obviously hasn't though through why the planes are sent when they are and the first one before dawn as it would answer her own question.

And it's not like the RAAF at Pearce are not available to ask.
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Old 21st Mar 2014, 12:52
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Batteries in cargo hold.. interesting, were they in forward or rear hold?
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Old 21st Mar 2014, 12:53
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FDR - Old type

A while ago someone was asking about the "old style" FDR and someone mentioned that they used a "Stainless steel" tape.

Others then asked how long the data would survive on a stainless steel "tape".

Just to clarify, the stainless steel tape is actually a really long roll of stainless steel foil, not unlike your aluminium cooking foil, but slightly thicker, and of course, much stronger and about six inches wide.

There are several "styluses" (stylii ??) in the FDR and each one physically "scratches" a mark on the foil corresponding to the parameters it is recording.

The "tape" was replaced on a regular basis.

So, assuming the box basically survived the crash, that is it didn't physically melt in an extreme fire, the tape and the data recorded on it would last until the end of time, if not longer.

Suffice to say, any number of orders of magnitude longer than any other available technology!
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Old 21st Mar 2014, 12:55
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Quick question: Are the Aussie P3s equipped for AAR?

The US P-8 is, but uses the flying boom type per US standard practice. If the answer is affirmative for the P-3s I assume they are drogue/hose, and therefore incompatible with US tankers?

AAR would obviously allow a lot long time on station....
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Old 21st Mar 2014, 12:55
  #6917 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by James7
A sharp cabin crew could stay on O2 for hours with use of portable O2. Certainly outlast the pilots. Hiflo would keep them alive ( just) above 40k. Above 40k you need to pressure breathe. They would come round once aircraft descended to reasonable level.
You would need a massive quantity of portable O2. Consider a scuba cylinder will not last that long. Certainly it will last longer at height than at depth but not that long.

Our portable bottles, a lot lighter than a scuba cylinder, would last for perhaps 20 minutes at 20k.
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Old 21st Mar 2014, 12:56
  #6918 (permalink)  
 
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Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370 Would Have Been Found If Communications Box Had $10 Upgrade

"When the plane was still missing on Sunday (the day after it disappeared), our engineers looked at the network data and realised that the plane had been sending signals," Inmarsat Senior Vice President Chris McLaughlin told IBTimes UK.

"We couldn't say what direction it had gone in, but the plane wasn't standing still because the signals were getting longer, i.e. further in distance from our satellite."

This I consider to be the first "official" statement, that
- distance data for all pings is available
- the penultimate ping came from a smaller distance than the last.

What I'm still wondering: Malaysians 772 business class is equipped with satphone. If this service was switched of deliberately, would there be anything in inmarsats logs indicating the point in time when this happened ?

Edit: --------------------
And here some more info on reconstructing the flight path (and the last ACARS burst):
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-0...estimates.html

Last edited by OleOle; 21st Mar 2014 at 13:42. Reason: Ad bloomberg link
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Old 21st Mar 2014, 12:58
  #6919 (permalink)  
 
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Don’t recall Inmarsat giving details of altitude of pings, simply distance.
I very much doubt that they can derive altitude, for two reasons.

The aircraft is a minimum of 36,000km from the satellite. So the difference between, say, FL280 and FL410 represents around 0.01% of the satellite-to-aircraft distance, which is very unlikely to be discernible given the tolerance on the ping-derived range.

But even if it was, how do you tell the difference between an aircraft on the X° curve and one slightly farther from the origin but at a higher altitude i.e. exactly the same slant height from the satellite?
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Old 21st Mar 2014, 12:59
  #6920 (permalink)  
 
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"AAR would obviously allow a lot long time on station...."

What about the crew ?

Others have already stated it is a tiring job, the 8 hours there and back can't be decreased, how long do you want them to be on continuous duty for when another aircraft can be on station to take over on a continuous basis during daylight hours ?
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