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Malaysian Airlines MH370 contact lost

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Malaysian Airlines MH370 contact lost

Old 14th Mar 2014, 02:04
  #3021 (permalink)  
 
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Wx radar would have been on I presume as per company SOPs, as it's non passive does any one know if that Doppler could be picked up by any one or thing looking at that bandwidth at that time?
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Old 14th Mar 2014, 02:09
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Search Organisation
It's easy to sit back & be critical of all the various agencies presently involved with the search for the B777,
Yes, it is, very.
but to me it does appear, the Malaysian Authorities are well out of their depth. There appears to be a division of action & responsibility between both the Military & Civilian sections
.
Does that surprise you?
At this stage, all of the local authorities appear to be running about , but doing little & achieving less.
How can you possibly know? A bit of subconscious disdain for the 'foreigner', methinks. Although I agree the press conferences have been pretty bad.
All this demonstrates, that the local agencies in Malayisia, have absolutely no idea of what happened to the missing 777 & where it is.
What? They don't know where the aircraft is? Quelle surprise. I think we knew that.
The Thais, Vietnamese, Singaporeans, Australians, Burmese, Americans, Chinese don't know either. But everyone has to follow up every possible lead, don't they?
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Old 14th Mar 2014, 02:11
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knob on transponder

LAS Jayhawk: Yet, it appears that operators of the -2ER could order different avionics suites; some transponders are push-button. In that case, pushing in one button would disable the xpndr, presumably by accident or confusion.
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Old 14th Mar 2014, 02:17
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@Opsmarco

We're talking about low likelihood mechanical errors not human error. In such mechanistic error/systems it's always much more likely that a single problem with widespread manifestations has occurred than 2-3 unrelated problems with their own manifestations occurring simultaneously. I think this is what the OP sought to look for a single point of failure rather than numerous disparate but coincidental mechanical failures in a relatively modern and safe aircraft.

With regard to human errors - then yes, often initial errors are compounded by subsequent errors by the same or different persons due to various types of cognitive bias, inexperience and situational factors.
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Old 14th Mar 2014, 02:22
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Reaching the end?

As someone who in his professional capacity has been closely involved in investigations and trials of both aviation and maritime casualties, I commend (as others have) the mods for keeping this forum sane in the face of perhaps repetitive, incendiary or unhelpful posts. The breadth of expertise residing here is breathtaking and the measured and knowledgable posts on technical issues ranging from VHF coverage maps to inter connectivity of electrical systems, a/c behavior and satcoms is helpful in getting to the bottom of what is going on through rapid brainstorming and analysis (and debunking) of various theories. I have been at the centre of these storms when information is coming in thick and fast, often too fast to evaluate, and have immense sympathy for the Malaysians here - particularly when their task is made all the harder by having to chase down false leads (satellite pics) or to respond on the spot to the worlds press on the status of what turn out to be irrelevant ADs for the aircraft. So don't underestimate the value of what you're doing, and please keep it coming.
Despite all the (very harsh) criticisms of early coordination efforts it does now look as if we are reaching a point where the Malaysians are being given genuine international assistance from all directions and a picture is coming together. It's not necessarily a pretty one, but if the Americans really have (remarkably) been able to isolate the pings of this aircraft's attempts to communicate even whilst out of radio coverage, then we may soon know where it, and the poor souls on board, are.
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Old 14th Mar 2014, 02:31
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Re turning off transponder

I believe there are 3 options for the transponder control panel, all from Gables, and all have a rotary control for mode control, such that STBY is at least a 2 position turn from the normal operating position. It certainly is NOT a simple push button or toggle switch. As a current T7 pilot previously noted, no one turns the transponder to STBY in normal ops.
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Old 14th Mar 2014, 02:32
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Actions for Rapid / Emergency Descent

May be a few minor differences with varying aircraft types, but basically I would think.,
- Oxy Masks on.
- Transfonder 7700
- Throttles closed (A/T out)
- Turn out of airway or away from other traffic.
- Vert Speed to maintain IAS on barber's pole, initially 6000ft/min plus???
- Communicate with Cabin Crew (if possible, but may well not be an option at this time)
- Maintain this config to at least 10'000ft or MSA if higher.
- Assess situation & take appropriate action.

Possibly of course, the very nature of the problem that required a rapid descent in the first place, may well prevent all the above actions being taken in order.
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Old 14th Mar 2014, 02:32
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@MrAntarctica

I agree. As you must agree that sometimes a technical fault with a very low probability of happening happens, and since the probability for that issue to arise, crew wasn't ready and did not respond the way they should (I'm speaking theoretically, as I said, I won't speculate on what happened here), starting a chain reaction...

But remember also something : the Boeing 777 is an amazing aircraft, we all agree on that. But if you look at the numbers, statistically, a problem that has an extremely low probability of happening on the 777, the more aircraft fly, and the longer the model is in service, the higher the probability that same issue arises...

Sorry if I wasn't clear enough, I think I better go to bed, now...
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Old 14th Mar 2014, 02:35
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I cannot confirm which type of XPDR is installed in the 777 in question.

With my operator we have this one on our -200s:



This is the "push type" some posters are referring to.
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Old 14th Mar 2014, 02:38
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^^^ But the mode control is rotary and two clicks from 'normal' to get to STBY
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Old 14th Mar 2014, 02:39
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Actions for Rapid / Emergency Descent

May be a few minor differences with varying aircraft types, but basically I would think.,
- Oxy Masks on.
- Transfonder 7700
- Throttles closed (A/T out)
- Turn out of airway or away from other traffic.
- Vert Speed to maintain IAS on barber's pole, initially 6000ft/min plus???
- Communicate with Cabin Crew (if possible, but may well not be an option at this time)
- Maintain this config to at least 10'000ft or MSA if higher.
- Assess situation & take appropriate action.
You are not even close for a B777's Emer Descent procedures!!
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Old 14th Mar 2014, 02:42
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"takes ages to sort through logs"

Actually it does not. There are now automated log scanning tools that look for anomalies which they can find in seconds if properly used.

As for why RR did not receive any reports from the ACARS that would have been because MAS did not subscribe to the service. Does'nt mean the signals were not received by the satellite and then sent to a master subscriber (er...maybe the NSA).
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Old 14th Mar 2014, 02:42
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WSJ now reporting that the pings included "location, speed, and altitude."

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/...LEFTTopStories
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Old 14th Mar 2014, 02:44
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marconiphone

I'm with you & all you say & thanks for your comments. I still would suggest, there does seem to be this Cvil V Military thing, on just who is in charge.
As you rightly say, nobody can say for certain at this time, what happened & where is the 777. To me, it would help if there was just one single agency, tasked with handng out the information.
Unfortunately, whatever the outcome, it will not be good I'm afraid.
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Old 14th Mar 2014, 02:44
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Does the B777 not have an automatic Emergency Descent Mode?
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Old 14th Mar 2014, 02:46
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9M-MRL had rotary transponder as of 2008:
Photos: Boeing 777-2H6/ER Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net

9M-MRM in 2011 too:
Photo: 9M-MRM (CN: 29066) Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777-2H6(ER) by A. W. Raeven - JetPhotos.Net
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Old 14th Mar 2014, 02:46
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sonar

REALLY, how is making a comment on dropping a sonobuoy from a P8 to listen for pingers worthy of being dropped from this thread?

P8 can drop sonor buoys or hydrophones and one is being sent to look/listen in the indian ocean?


comment pasted above from an earlier thread.
well to be honest they may be doing just that as well as the use of dumking sonar.

Only time will tell just what the pros are up to out there, but rest assured they will not have left any stones unturned or procedure possible untried.

Its all to easy for us to sit back and say they should have done this or done that or go here go there.

As for the passing of info to the media.
Lets just take a short breath here.
What if this situation was the result of a security lapse or its tied to an act of terror then of course the powers that be would not want to pass on all the info that they may have to hand as it may have an effect on possible actions they have or are planning. Untill the dust settles we wont know all the facts we can only continue to speculate.
However from where I am sat nice and cozy in China reading the threads and watching BBC and CNN, I can see vast sums of money and effort being expended by not only Malay but from some governments close by and all in an effort to assist close this out. So hats off to them guys.
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Old 14th Mar 2014, 02:46
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grumpyoldgeek
Quote:
"There is probably a significant likelihood" that Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 is on the bottom of the Indian Ocean, a senior U.S. official told CNN's Barbara Starr Thursday, citing information Malaysia has shared with the United States."
And I submit that there is a significant likelihood that US subs or subhunters have picked up the underwater ping from the emergency locator transmitter.

If so, expect a breakthrough in the next 12-24 hours.
Unlikely. The ocean is very large, and submarines are very few. If the plane is in the Indian ocean, the pingers are likely too deep to be heard by a sub or sonobuoys unless nearly overhead. See: Pinger Range, much of which could apply to this situation.

Edit: I should have mentioned, that reliable reception of these pingers, if they are deep, requires a deep (towed) receiver. That is why the US Navy has deep-towed pinger locators, which were used (unsuccessfully) to search for AF447.

Last edited by auv-ee; 14th Mar 2014 at 02:56. Reason: Additional comment
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Old 14th Mar 2014, 02:49
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Anyone can turn off the transponder but nobody can turn off the telemetry. That's all you need to know about what went down
Easy access within the cabin via E11 to the SATCOM, would disable all telemetry.

But I'm still interested whether this 777 is equipped with Satphones... unlikely I guess seeing it would completely redefine the scenario.
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Old 14th Mar 2014, 02:50
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^^^ But the mode control is rotary and two clicks from 'normal' to get to STBY
That picture is from FCOM1.

The normal position for the switch is TA/RA.
It NEVER leaves that position except when called for by the Checklist (normally following an engine failure. Then it goes from TA/RA to TA ONLY).
It is completely inconceivable to me that any 777 pilot can accidentally select standby on this type of XPDR.

Switching it to STBY will also create an TCAS advisory message on EICAS.

----

WRT Emer Descent and the XPDR:

There is no changing of the XPDR mode in ANY checklist associated with Emer Descent.
The Emer Descent checklist only calls for 7700 set.
This is normally accomplished by the PM (we are trained to do it at the same time as we transmit a MAYDAY message).
The PF will be getting the aircraft in a descent and will not touch the XPDR as he's too busy with flying.

---

Disclaimer: I do not fly 777s for MAS
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