Malaysian Airlines MH370 contact lost
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It's conceivable that out of 200+ mobile and smartphones with identifiable GPS receivers some didn't get turned OFF, or weren't switched into FLIGHT mode. Assuredly, those recorded GPS satellite signals could be traced from the airplane's last known position.
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Mobile phones however transmit & receive.
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Where I come from, my understanding from very good sources is that this information is retained indefinitely.
In Australia cell-tower data is ephemeral and disappears fairly rapidly. It's called 'stored communications' and can be accessed only within a few days after the event. It's pulled from the edge switches that handle the cell-towers on an as-needs basis.
Billing information is not 'stored communications' and is kept indefinitely either under Government regulation or Telco practice. Billing information comes into existence when any call is made - even if it is free.
Malaysia and Indonesia use the same type of GSM network as Australia and probably the same manufacturer (usually Ericsson). They may have a more aggressive collecting policy on the ephemeral data, but it's more likely to be much the same as Australia.
There is another type of data called User Location Register. That's network wide and records phones registered to the network at any given time down to the cell-tower level. Again, it's not something I'm aware of that is routinely collated and stored. At least not in Australia. Roaming calls are of interest because when a phone roams to a new network the network notifies the original Telco that the phone is registered in its network. However I doubt it notifies to cell-tower level.
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@LASJayhawk
Don't know about the 777, but for example on the A340, according to the old FCOM I have here, if you start it in cruise, you'll have electrical power, but APU bleed is available only up to 25'000ft climbing and from 23'000ft during descent.
I'm going to check for the 777...
Don't know about the 777, but for example on the A340, according to the old FCOM I have here, if you start it in cruise, you'll have electrical power, but APU bleed is available only up to 25'000ft climbing and from 23'000ft during descent.
I'm going to check for the 777...
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etrang
But the timeline for when that information, if it exists, was made available is not clear.
The fact that the aircraft may have been pinging periodically for up yo four hours is the flight timeline, not the SAR timeline.
The fact that the aircraft may have been pinging periodically for up yo four hours is the flight timeline, not the SAR timeline.
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Malaysians 'muppets', etrang? To quote you,
Yes, one example of why the Malaysians face such a challenging situation, as time and again supposedly 'reliable' sources, including sources from outside Malaysia, have proved to be misleading and contradictory. If the US 'knew' where the plane is, they would have told everyone by now and the mystery would have been resolved. None of us can know for sure, but press conferences aside, I can see no reason not to think they are doing the best job they can in the circumstances.
'Mabuhay, the time line is quite clear; media reports say "the US has data indicating a 5 hour flight", then at the next investigation up-date the Malaysians say "the report is not true because we asked Rolls Royce about ACARS messages". Clearly the discussion with RR does NOT disprove the original claim which has now been repeated by White House sources. This is only one example.'
Last edited by marconiphone; 14th Mar 2014 at 05:00. Reason: Irritation
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If the information is correct that they received pings for 5 hours it might be a valid assumption that the aircraft continued until the engines flamed out. Obviously one of the scenarios could have been a successful ditching and a bunch of life rafts floating somewhere.
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If a buss problem occurred, and took out 1 IDG, the busses tie and takes out the second. APU is off so your down to the emergency generator ( that can't carry the whole plane) and the battery powered backup...
If the event was caused by a hull breech and for some reason the pilots didn't get on O2 fast enough you would lose a lot from the load shed, and would start losing more as the radios dropped out do to low buss voltage.
I know..longshot. But just because the APU Is supposed to start at service ceiling doesn't mean this one would.
If the event was caused by a hull breech and for some reason the pilots didn't get on O2 fast enough you would lose a lot from the load shed, and would start losing more as the radios dropped out do to low buss voltage.
I know..longshot. But just because the APU Is supposed to start at service ceiling doesn't mean this one would.
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RE ACARS- PINGS- TRACKING
FROM WSJ . . ." The automatic pings, or attempts to link up with satellites operated by Inmarsat PLC, occurred a number of times after Flight 370's last verified position, the people briefed on the situation said, indicating that at least through those five hours, the Boeing Co. BA -2.04% 777 carrying 239 people remained intact and hadn't been destroyed in a crash, act of sabotage or explosion.
Malaysia Airlines said it hadn't received any such data. According to Boeing, the plane's manufacturer, the airline didn't purchase a package through Boeing to monitor its airplanes' data through the satellite system."
IMO- there is a lot of confusion re pings and data by most of the media
depending on whom you believe
1) MA did not buy the online- enroute maint package- therefore pings may only had or RR only received takeoff and climb and mayberf level off data- thus the " no data " after xxx comment
2) The simple pings may only contain altitude and speed data- triangulation by sigint or other satellites may reveal course
3) The difference in time between Acars data and turnoff of transponder may be simply due to ACARS time intervals re pinging
4) Its doubtful the Pentagon would re route a destroyer/ship AND P8 without a bit more positive info than reported
5) actions re shutoff of systems seem to be deliberate- rule out explosion
6) IF deliberate - why not fly to deepwater and dive in - no claims by any group will have greater longterm effect ( re cost $$$$$ and unknown FUD ) than simply saying ' we did it "
7) On a $$$ cost basis, the 911 was very effective and made a major change in air travel and security costs
8 ) almost any-every indication and analysis seem to indicate a deliberate action by ?????
(9) AD re corossion is a non starter as is my post about future tie in of FBW and entertainment systems PLANNED BUT NOT YET IMPLEMENTED-
JUST MHO- FWIW
Malaysia Airlines said it hadn't received any such data. According to Boeing, the plane's manufacturer, the airline didn't purchase a package through Boeing to monitor its airplanes' data through the satellite system."
IMO- there is a lot of confusion re pings and data by most of the media
depending on whom you believe
1) MA did not buy the online- enroute maint package- therefore pings may only had or RR only received takeoff and climb and mayberf level off data- thus the " no data " after xxx comment
2) The simple pings may only contain altitude and speed data- triangulation by sigint or other satellites may reveal course
3) The difference in time between Acars data and turnoff of transponder may be simply due to ACARS time intervals re pinging
4) Its doubtful the Pentagon would re route a destroyer/ship AND P8 without a bit more positive info than reported
5) actions re shutoff of systems seem to be deliberate- rule out explosion
6) IF deliberate - why not fly to deepwater and dive in - no claims by any group will have greater longterm effect ( re cost $$$$$ and unknown FUD ) than simply saying ' we did it "
7) On a $$$ cost basis, the 911 was very effective and made a major change in air travel and security costs
8 ) almost any-every indication and analysis seem to indicate a deliberate action by ?????
(9) AD re corossion is a non starter as is my post about future tie in of FBW and entertainment systems PLANNED BUT NOT YET IMPLEMENTED-
JUST MHO- FWIW
Last edited by DWS; 14th Mar 2014 at 05:05. Reason: ADDED P8
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slats11
But human intervention is not the same thing as system failure.
From a security point of view, which is my field, preventing human intervention is whole different ballgame from making systems more reliable and less prone to failure.
The only way to stop a human intervening and doing something they shouldn't is to totally lock the human out of the equation. So the pilot would be rendered a complete spectator and would, therefore, be completely superfluous.
From a security point of view, which is my field, preventing human intervention is whole different ballgame from making systems more reliable and less prone to failure.
The only way to stop a human intervening and doing something they shouldn't is to totally lock the human out of the equation. So the pilot would be rendered a complete spectator and would, therefore, be completely superfluous.
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Originally Posted by StormyKnight
There is no way to determine if a GPS receiver is active (its like detecting your TV or car radio is receiving a channel)
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If the information is correct that they received pings for 5 hours it might be a valid assumption that the aircraft continued until the engines flamed out. Obviously one of the scenarios could have been a successful ditching and a bunch of life rafts floating somewhere.
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Impressions on Press Conference
Over the course of the week, we've seen the Malaysians hold several press conferences. As we are not privy to what goes on behind the scenes to the actual SAR work, we can only draw the efficacy of their operations from these media events.
IMHO, they started the press conferences like deer caught in headlights, but are getting better. I think they have revealed what they are sure of, and were cautious with unconfirmed information at hand. Military secrecy is not unique to them, and I was suprised that earlier press conferences involved a couple of generals. If unlawful acts were considered, it is understandable that leads were not publicised straight out. They have been consistent in saying the priority is to find the plane, and I believe this is matched by what they do on the ground (well, at sea & in the air, rather).
But being in the limelight is clearly not their thing. To make matters worse, those on the podium try to communicate in English, only a second language in Malaysia. They were hesitant, clumsy and uncoordinated. And so we judge their whole operation by what we see there.
Everyone is frustrated with the lack of progress. It is all too easy to place blame as a way to vent.
IMHO, they started the press conferences like deer caught in headlights, but are getting better. I think they have revealed what they are sure of, and were cautious with unconfirmed information at hand. Military secrecy is not unique to them, and I was suprised that earlier press conferences involved a couple of generals. If unlawful acts were considered, it is understandable that leads were not publicised straight out. They have been consistent in saying the priority is to find the plane, and I believe this is matched by what they do on the ground (well, at sea & in the air, rather).
But being in the limelight is clearly not their thing. To make matters worse, those on the podium try to communicate in English, only a second language in Malaysia. They were hesitant, clumsy and uncoordinated. And so we judge their whole operation by what we see there.
Everyone is frustrated with the lack of progress. It is all too easy to place blame as a way to vent.
