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Malaysian Airlines MH370 contact lost

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Malaysian Airlines MH370 contact lost

Old 9th Mar 2014, 21:19
  #1021 (permalink)  
 
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It is definitely in the fishermans favour to collect anything they find, I read in the last couple of days about a previous crash where a fisherman found what he thought was a piece of plywood that turned out to be part of a tail from a similar crash in the 90s.

Boeing rewarded the fisherman by paying him $5250 for handing it in.

It was the Adam Air Flight 574 crash:-
The fisherman received a reward of 50 million rupiah (equivalent to about $5,500) for his discovery

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Air_Flight_574

Last edited by PhilGSolent; 9th Mar 2014 at 21:30. Reason: Found the crash details but in 2007 not the 90s
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Old 9th Mar 2014, 21:23
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Quote:
Quote:
Would not immigration officials at Schiphol receive a passenger manifest of the incoming flight, and check that manifest against a database of reported passport losses, and identify that individual for special attention on entry?
No they would not, there is no such requirement in Europe or anywhere else but the US.
But surely red lights would have flashed when those two passengers travelling on stolen showed up at the Schengen border at AMS - given that the passports produced to the immigration officer were registered as stolen with Interpol?
what makes you think they would present the same stolen passport on arrival at immigration? They may be carrying a dozen different, perhaps altered, passports.

Last edited by VH-Cheer Up; 9th Mar 2014 at 21:29. Reason: Fix spilling mastoke
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Old 9th Mar 2014, 21:24
  #1023 (permalink)  
 
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Distance between low and high speed buffet at FL350 is depending on the weight mainly, it is difficult to determine this without additional information.

It seems to me it's a tougher job to stall a tripple 7 all the way down in to the sea as you have a big control column in front of you. This makes it easier for the guy next to you to recognize what control inputs you are actually making and maybe even correct you from doing wrong.

However, anything remains possible.
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Old 9th Mar 2014, 21:29
  #1024 (permalink)  
 
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Jack1985:


Please refer to Post 999 for a summary of what is known.
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Old 9th Mar 2014, 21:48
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So where are these pics of wreckage that some on here are commenting on? I've scoured the news sites and cant find anything but pics of what looks like coral spawn or algae bloom on the water.
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Old 9th Mar 2014, 21:58
  #1026 (permalink)  
 
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Australian ABC news reports are suggesting Malaysia is being very slow to release information about suspect passengers. In Western countries the mug shots of these passengers would be all over the media and investigative journalists would be hard on the case, regardless of the present state of knowledge. They seem to be reluctant to say anything which might point to deficiencies in their systems or open themselves up to litigation.
Apparently Malaysia doesn't compare passenger passports with current Interpol lists.

Last edited by flyingfox; 9th Mar 2014 at 22:46.
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Old 9th Mar 2014, 22:01
  #1027 (permalink)  
 
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Phiggsbroadband

Please excuse me if this has been posted earlier.. But I cannot help thinking that the transponder return cannot go from 35,000ft to 0ft in next to no time.
Even with the nose vertically down it would take 40+ seconds, and more if you take the maximum possible curve into account. Freefall from that altitude would take over 3 minutes, and would be speed limited by the terminal velocity.
The FR24 trace continues several miles beyond the 0ft point. So either someone switched the transponder off, or it had a partial progressive failure.
Short answer, it didn't.

Long answer, that 35k to 0 is someone's less than fantastic software. It you turned off altitude reporting you would get an invalid not zero. And transponders altitude encoding starts 1200 feet below sea level anyway.

So the best guess is someone's code interprets no data as 0 feet.

Last edited by LASJayhawk; 9th Mar 2014 at 22:03. Reason: iPad auto correct :(
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Old 9th Mar 2014, 22:06
  #1028 (permalink)  
 
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On the freefall time, the 3+ minute estimate is a bit off.

s=ut + 0.5at^2, assuming an initial vertical velocity of 0, and initial height s=8000m (I can't be bothered to convert 35,000' to m), t would be around 40s.
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Old 9th Mar 2014, 22:08
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Unfortunately I am unable to provide you a link, however it has been reported here and other forums that the Malaysian Civil Aviation General confirmed during a press conference that no ACARS message linking to malfunctions of the aircraft were sent to Malaysia Airlines Operations Centre.

It is unclear whether the ACARS downlink transmission suddenly stopped, as I am led to conclude based on this report, or not. MA and Malaysia authorities are being pretty tight lipped so far.
To all those people placing high hopes on ACARS, you probably don't know what it is..

It is only the datalink itself, just the system delivering a message, it doesn't make the message.
Messages can be directed (amongst others) at ATC, the airlines operations control or the technical department and it can be used to access external providers, for instance to get wx reports.
It can be uplinked or downlinked an can be automatically or manually.

Now the messages from AF447 originated from the ACMS (look it up) that reacted on several active faults that it sensed. ACMS downlinked those faults automatically to AF's tech department as it is apparently programmed to do.
That works in my airline the same but these are usually customer options, so who knows how Malaysian has set that up or what system they have in place.

Anyway you cannot conclude anything from the absence of downlink reports.

And for the conspiracy theorists suspecting MAS to keep messages for themselves, in my company it is not allowed to sent any sensitive information (like Creditcard numbers of customers) because it is easily intercepted (Get your free ACARS decoder on the 'net).
Would be something if it turns out afterwards that MAS had withheld information.
Don't think so!
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Old 9th Mar 2014, 22:08
  #1030 (permalink)  
 
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Surface search ...

For those interested, the Sunrise Time is 2313 UTC at 7N 104E, and Civil Twilight is around 20 minutes earlier.
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Old 9th Mar 2014, 22:10
  #1031 (permalink)  
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FR 24 have an analysis of their data. They reckon it's sound above 30000'. Read it here: https://www.facebook.com/flightradar24
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Old 9th Mar 2014, 22:13
  #1032 (permalink)  
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BEA offers assistance

French accident board offers help recovering missing flight MH370


"We have communicated to Malaysian and Vietnamese authorities that we are ready to assist with the underwater search operations or recovery of wreckage," a spokeswoman for the Paris-based BEA accident investigation branch said on Sunday.
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Old 9th Mar 2014, 22:15
  #1033 (permalink)  
 
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The radar returns suggesting a turn back may be artifacts of large parts of the plane coming apart on different trajectories.

If I remember correctly, on TW800, after the center fuel tank blew, the fuselage was severed forward of the wingbox, the engines briefly continued to deliver thrust, the rear fuselage pitched up and forward in a parabola before arcing over.
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Old 9th Mar 2014, 22:22
  #1034 (permalink)  
 
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Question about use by pax of false (stolen, apparently, in this case) passports

A fairly significant proportion of this thread comments upon the aspect of the incident that involves use (evidently) of stolen passports. These subject-matter posts have been very largely factual. So I ask this question:

Is there a relationship between how passports are handled under the current ICAO civ av int'l legal and regulatory scheme, and the legal and juridical structures in place for the PIC to subdue, restrain, otherwise deal with "unruly pax"? Asking this because - as many posters know I suppose - ICAO soon convenes its Air Law conference to consider amendments of the Tokyo Convention to update or clarify juridical and jurisdictional provisions pertaining to PIC authorizations to control (& etc) unruly pax.

If a hard look at tightening up passport handling (broadly defined, as the facts of this incident still are being revealed) is in order, do you think it can legitimately be fit into the upcoming ICAO gab-fest on "unruly pax"? My legal mind senses a link between reforms on the conference agenda - about juridical structures and jurisdictional limitations and assignations of PIC authority to control bad-acting pax- and the emerging passport issues. Thank you for your attention to this inquiry.
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Old 9th Mar 2014, 22:22
  #1035 (permalink)  
 
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The lack of ANY debris field after an extensive search in a reasonable area could indicate that the aircraft was deliberately taken "offline",
OR

They are looking in the wrong place!!!
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Old 9th Mar 2014, 22:22
  #1036 (permalink)  
 
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TIME reports SAR spotted floating debris

Vietnamese Officials Say Airplane Debris Found in South China Sea - TIME

Vietnamese officials claim to have found fragments of an inner door and part of the tail from what might be a missing Malaysia Airlines jet
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Old 9th Mar 2014, 22:25
  #1037 (permalink)  
 
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French accident board offers help recovering missing flight MH370
Ditto the NTSB, who have a team enroute (probably in the region by now), including technical advisers from Boeing and the FAA, although of course they don't know yet which country's AIB will be leading the investigation as that depends on exactly where the aircraft went down.

https://www.ntsb.gov/news/2014/140308.html
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Old 9th Mar 2014, 22:30
  #1038 (permalink)  
 
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On the freefall time, the 3+ minute estimate is a bit off.

s=ut + 0.5at^2, assuming an initial vertical velocity of 0, and initial height s=8000m (I can't be bothered to convert 35,000' to m), t would be around 40s.
Are you sure about this?

I don't see any provision for air resistance in that equation...
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Old 9th Mar 2014, 22:33
  #1039 (permalink)  
 
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@golfyankeesierra
To all those people placing high hopes on ACARS, you probably don't know what it is..

It is only the datalink itself, just the system 447delivering a message, it doesn't make the message.
Messages can be directed (amongst others) at ATC, the airlines operations control or the technical department and it can be used to access external providers, for instance to get wx reports.
It can be uplinked or downlinked an can be automatically or manually.

Now the messages from AF447 originated from the ACMS (look it up) that reacted on several active faults that it sensed. ACMS downlinked those faults automatically to AF's tech department as it is apparently programmed to do.
That works in my airline the same but these are usually customer options, so who knows how Malaysian has set that up or what system they have in place.
I am afraid you misinterpreted my post or deliberately tried to show your self-proclaimed ACARS "knowledge" to this community disqualifying my statement.

Where did I suggest in my post that I have hopes in ACARS?
Where did I suggest in my post that "downlink" is synonym of manual transmission? I simply didn't.
The aircraft is constantly in contact with the CPS through a bi-directional automatic transmission (uplinks/downlinks) based on "tech acks". The downlinks from the aircraft contain, among the others, positional data. This has nothing to do with manual messages and nothing in my post suggested this.

Anyway you cannot conclude anything from the absence of downlink reports.
Yes I can. If the CPS does not receive downlinks from the aircraft for a certain period of time, a failure report is automatically originated and sent to dispatchers (among others). What I tried to explain in my post is that, unlike the case of AF447, we do not have the logs here, only the word of the Malaysian Civil Aviation General stating that "no malfunction ACARS" were received. It would be interesting to analyze such logs, but they were not released so far.

And for the conspiracy theorists, in my company it is not allowed to sent any sensitive information (like Creditcard numbers of customers) because it is easily intercepted (Get your free ACARS decoder on the 'net).
Would be something if it turns out afterwards that MAS withholds information.
Don't think so!
Again, where did I suggest a conspiracy theory?
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Old 9th Mar 2014, 22:35
  #1040 (permalink)  
 
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Yes, 40s is about right for an object released with no initial velocity.

If an aircraft pitches down, however, some part of the horizontal velocity becomes the initial velocity (100% if it goes vertical) so it will take less time even if it breaks up.
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