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Plane of singer Jenni Rivera missing in Mexico

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Plane of singer Jenni Rivera missing in Mexico

Old 22nd Dec 2012, 19:53
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I agree with your sentiments wholeheartedly Desert185. Force (of will) is often needed to stay out of the statistical bell curve and live according to your own merits. Keep at it.

Aspiring to be a statistical "outlier" seems a worthy enough goal even if only to stick a thumb in the eyes of the "pencil pushers"! .


On the topic of the Lear crash, it occurs to me that the preliminary report from the Mexican investigation is still pending. Even though investigations involving such destructive impact sites as this one often take allot of time and sometimes reveal less than we'd like, there are a number of things that can be learned by examining what's there. It becomes a matter of how much effort and expense an entity is willing to invest in an investigation though. That is presently unknown. Perhaps a preliminary report might provide a little more fuel for somewhat more informed speculation.

Past earlier series Lear crashes run the causal gamut from pilot induced mach tuck to electrical malfunction with and without fire, structural failure, pilot incapacitation, you name it. Until more information surfaces this discussion is left to wander.
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Old 22nd Dec 2012, 20:27
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bubbers ...you make a darn good case for being on top of things. That story about the generators is a good one...and I sure learned about flying from that 727 crash off LAX that you spoke of.

Everything I've really learned about flying is from trying to avoid the same circumstances that lead to a tgold ribbon crash. from the coffe cup in ''fate is the hunter" film, to multiple terrain crashes (sinatra's mom, dean martin's son) to people freezing on the controls and not pushing the stick forward in a crash.

let's learn from this lear crash too
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Old 22nd Dec 2012, 21:22
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A long time ago a 727 was lost at night taking off from LAX at night with two generators and another was lost overloading the final one and losing everything. That might have been the reason for standby instruments as we have now.
Back when I went to FE school on the 727, they drilled that accident into us.

But now that I think about it, this could be a different accident, but I recall they took off and essential was still on the APU, that the FE had not shut down, then just after rotation, he pulled the APU fire handle, shutting down the APU losing essential and the cockpit went dark.

Back to the accident, I've got about 500 hours in Lear 24/25/28, yes a Lear 28, and I've not a clue what could have caused this one to come basically straight down from FL280.

Sadly, there is a good chance, we'll never know.
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Old 22nd Dec 2012, 22:08
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We were taking off out of SEA with a low ceiling and one generator inop with APU as the second generator. In the clouds shortly after takeoff the FO turned off the APU so were one one generator for a while. It worked out ok since we restarted it but could have been a problem.

What made the DCA takeoff with the over voltage more interesting was our clearance was runway heading for vectors. When we took off with a company Lear talking to tower behind us for takeoff clearance realized we were headed straight into the prohibited area because they changed runways. I turned left to avoid the prohibited space and finally informed tower I need a heading so they reversed to a right turn which took over 30 degrees bank to avoid entering prohibited area and that is when the panel lights went full bright with a pegged out volt meter. It all worked out fine but I didn't have to land in the Hudson so feel fortunate.

Julie Andrews was on the Lear behind us and I was flying the other half of the cast of her movie SOB where she briefly showed her breasts. The cast was met by press at every airport we landed at on that five day trip asking why she did it. She said it was in the script. I know, off topic.
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Old 22nd Dec 2012, 23:06
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bubbers

Boobs are never off topic. There was a time that was understood by every pilot who knew where the rudder trim knob was on a Douglas.
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Old 23rd Dec 2012, 01:27
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SSR, boobs are always on my mind too. The sound of music Julie Andrews wasn't expected to do that so shocked some people. I flew her two kids and their Nanny from Mexico to LAX in the 70's. She needed a Visa because she was from south america so at Mexican customs I offered another 20 bucks to let the problem be solved. It was kind of fun then but really was happy to finally get an airline job and not have to deal with all that crap.

I knew San Salvador was ripping us off because the fuel upload slip was always more than what our fuel gauges said when they finished fueling. I went down and read their meters before and after fueling and it was always over what we actually got. I collected a month's worth of receipts and what our fuel gauges showed before and after fueling vs what they charged us for and showed the chief pilot. They investigated and found nothing. Price of doing business down there.
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Old 23rd Dec 2012, 13:12
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DownGreen:

Arpster....Don't know where you are coming from ref: "LOC" minimums, but I have over 6,000 hrs PIC ont the 727 worldwide and a "raw data" ILS was the norm...FD is nice to have, but simply by the virture of your ATP, you are deemed qualified to conduct this approach without a F/D...If you can't manage it...shame on you...move 3' back to the right seat, or better yet, turn your certificate back into the FAA....
Where I am coming from, my paycheck was signed by TWA and every jet transport had the same limitation. Raw data = LOC MDA as DA. It was in the ops specs, which meant it was an F.A.R.
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Old 23rd Dec 2012, 14:06
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JET transport mins were higher without flight director/autopilot and additional training in sim. only after that could you do 200/1/2and that was in the Part 121.

that was the way it was (and is) . mind you we all get training on ILS now in the sim and all planes have flight directors (airliner)autopilots now, but I've sure heard of it ...you can even reference it in the book , "fly the wing" by webb.

That is interesting about julie also interesting about south of the border operations. I hated flying outside the USA...I like my rights. Canada was ok...but I was always on guard down south of the border.

Regarding Boobs...amazingly enough, the most beautiful flight attendant and most beautiful girl I've ever seen was not exactly equipped with hamilton standard props if yo uknow what I mean. just incredible, tall, should have been on the cover of a magazine. no makeup either...perfect!


And for the record, the reason I became an airline pilot was beautiful flight attendants.(and for the record and modern times, FEMALE flight attendants/stews)
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Old 23rd Dec 2012, 14:34
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At Aircal we had mostly straight FA's. When I was a new FO I had a new stew come up to the cockpit, her name was Joetta. She was the sweetest pretty thing I had ever seen and unlike the other FA's who were also new and around 25 years old didn't have much make up on. I asked her why the others had so much make up and she didn't? She said should I put more on? I said no, you are absolutely gorgeous just the way you are. The captain said you better watch out for this guy.

My first flight observing on the jump seat of a 737 this beautiful blonde with great boobs came up and had two cups of coffee in her hand to give to the pilots flying. ATC called and got their attention as we hit a bump and she lost her balance putting her boobs on my ears. I though I had died and gone to heaven with this job. PSA and Aircal had the hottest stews in California. That is where I got my wife. First I convinced her she would be a shoe in for Aircal because she didn't think they would hire her. They did and many years later we started dating. If we drift off topic it should be about boobs, don't you think?
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Old 23rd Dec 2012, 15:45
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If we drift off topic it should be about boobs, don't you think?
I can't think of a better reason.

Course one slight problem wiht the FAs I flew with, after they got off the aircraft, they were armed.

Last edited by con-pilot; 23rd Dec 2012 at 15:46.
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Old 23rd Dec 2012, 16:13
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727 APU

Sorry for continuing the thread drift but the APU running inflight has me baffeld. I have about 7000 hours in the airplane and for some reans I cannot ever recall running the APU inflight. What am I missing??
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Old 23rd Dec 2012, 16:15
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there will be those who object...but

bubbers, you are a lucky guy!

and yes, thread drift to boobs...that's the way real pilots talk in real airplanes in the real sky...no flight sim video here.

there will be those who object...I will call them the British types (no sex please, we're british)...and God bless them all.

so let there be thread drift...it is the real way we talk as pilots (not engineers).
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Old 23rd Dec 2012, 16:47
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Sorry for continuing the thread drift but the APU running inflight has me baffeld. I have about 7000 hours in the airplane and for some reans I cannot ever recall running the APU inflight. What am I missing??
The only way that the APU can run in flight on a 727, is if the FE forgets to turn it off prior to takeoff. Then the only way to shut it down, is to pull the APU fire handle. I had it happen to me twice, when the FE forgot to shut it down.

Sorry for the confusion.
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Old 23rd Dec 2012, 18:22
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727 APU could not be started in-flight....

....but it would run if left on for takeoff and if somehow not noticed could result in a wheel well fire indication on climb out.
Years ago in TXL we had a young FE who forgot to turn off the APU not once, but twice. He was advised that his career prospects were limited and that he should seek employment elsewhere.

He got on with a cargo airline in MEM and did well. Sadly, he passed away a couple of years ago...
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Old 23rd Dec 2012, 19:52
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Sorry for more thread drift.

a wheel well fire indication on climb out
The two times it happened to me, we got an APU fire alarm. In school I was taught that it would be a wheel well fire indication as well, but...

Oh, and neither time was it a PFE that left the APU running, but a pilot playing FE.
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Old 23rd Dec 2012, 20:01
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Never flew the 727, curious as to why running the APU after takeoff is a no no beyond the immediate consideration of slightly increased fuel burn. From the posts here, it sounds like there's some unforeseen hazard.

Thanks
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Old 23rd Dec 2012, 21:09
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I was taught that it would just get too hot in the wheel well area for continued operations.
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Old 23rd Dec 2012, 22:20
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I started in the airlines with a B737, that is what I was talking about with the APU take off. Aircal didn't have 727's. Yes I know the 727 can't operate in the air with an APU. American had 727's.
Lets get back to boobs.

By the way does anybody know what the copilot Lear experience was who was 20 years old flying a Lear Jet had? I believe the 78 year old captain at 4:00 AM was not flying. I think that is the probable cause of the accident. The autopilot failed and he couldn't fly it like my buddy who couldn't control our flight into LAS.
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Old 23rd Dec 2012, 22:46
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I believe the 78 year old captain at 4:00 AM was not flying. I think that is the probable cause of the accident. The autopilot failed and he couldn't fly it like my buddy who couldn't control our flight into LAS.
That is an likely probable cause for sure. While from the photos from the accident site shows very little wreckage to work with, as I learned in NTSB Aircraft Accident Investigators school, the NTSB can find out a hell of lot with very little material. But some, it is just impossible to find the cause, there is just not enough left.

And I will very surprised if the CVR was working.
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Old 23rd Dec 2012, 22:53
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bubbers 44:

A long time ago a 727 was lost at night taking off from LAX at night with two generators and another was lost overloading the final one and losing everything. That might have been the reason for standby instruments as we have now.
I thought all 727s had standby power in case all three generators and essential power were lost. Standby power had to be switched on. It powered the captain's normal flight instruments and I believe one VHF comm and one nav comm from the battery bus. UAL's airplane that went into the ocean departing LAX had standby power but the stock Boeing position for the standby power switch was on the F/E panel. TWA paid to have it placed on the overhead panel where all three crew members could get to it.

Last edited by aterpster; 23rd Dec 2012 at 22:54.
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