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Plane of singer Jenni Rivera missing in Mexico

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Plane of singer Jenni Rivera missing in Mexico

Old 15th Dec 2012, 09:54
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CJ2

Haven't "fully developed" stalled a Lear. However suffice to say, if any fixed leading edge devices are adjusted or replaced, the aircraft has to be stall tested by a Lear test pilot. I was in Germany about 10 years ago and a Lear Test pilot was flown out from Wichita, to perform that test.

Janetflight

This is a great testimony to the current generation of Boeing aircraft of course. What great aircraft they build. I flew corporate, with an ex 3rd world flag carrier, senior 744 Captain. He was unable to perform an ILS, within limits, on raw information alone. He was also unable to safely carry out a visual circuit, using visual means olone. His flying technique was such, he would never have managed (near the ground) a first generation heavy jet built by Boeing. BTW I am qualified on the 707 and 747.

Not being catty here but this does illustrate the total reliance on the reliable, automatics, of today.

Last edited by screwballburling; 15th Dec 2012 at 10:00.
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Old 15th Dec 2012, 13:05
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screwball:

This is a great testimony to the current generation of Boeing aircraft of course. What great aircraft they build. I flew corporate, with an ex 3rd world flag carrier, senior 744 Captain. He was unable to perform an ILS, within limits, on raw information alone. He was also unable to safely carry out a visual circuit, using visual means olone. His flying technique was such, he would never have managed (near the ground) a first generation heavy jet built by Boeing. BTW I am qualified on the 707 and 747.
FWIW, my company (TWA) prohited raw data ILS approaches on all its jets, which included a whole lot of 707s, 747s, and 727s. If either the autopilot or flight director was not working the ILS could only be flown to LOC minimums. This restriction was there when I went to work in January, 1964 and remained throughout my carrier. In the later generation 767s and the L1011, it was unlikely to encounter this restriction. Much more likely on the 707 and 727. I can't speak to the early 747, because I never flew it.
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Old 16th Dec 2012, 13:02
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Old 16th Dec 2012, 22:05
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a little thread drift...at the dawn of the jet age, even though ILS mins were 1/2 mile vis, IF YOU DIDN"T HAVE A FLIGHT DIRECTOR you could only do 3/4 miles.

it wasn't even an airline thing, it was a jet thing under FAA jurisdiction. the DH was 250' without a FD.
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Old 16th Dec 2012, 22:10
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sevenstrokeroll:

a little thread drift...at the dawn of the jet age, even though ILS mins were 1/2 mile vis, IF YOU DIDN"T HAVE A FLIGHT DIRECTOR you could only do 3/4 miles.

it wasn't even an airline thing, it was a jet thing under FAA jurisdiction. the DH was 250' without a FD.
As I said two messages ago it was LOC MDA that became DH and perhaps not less than 3/4 or RVR 4000. Perhaps some of that was company and some FAA.
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Old 16th Dec 2012, 23:06
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It seems important that the FAA standards only apply, not TWA SOP's for the rest of us.

The FD's we had in our 737's at Aircal were pretty worthless as were the autopilots for approach. Sometimes the autopilot didn't work and another day the FD going to ONT stuck in pitch down and my FO got low and told her to level out below 1,000 feet and she insisted by staring at the FD saying she was high so said look out the window at the runway angle. Of course she blamed it on the FD sticking and stomped off after landing because it wasn't her fault the FD stuck. Glideslope obviously was not part of her crosscheck.
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Old 17th Dec 2012, 01:12
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bubbers;

"Glideslope obviously was not part of her crosscheck. "

Yep, seen this as well and heard it. I could never understand that it was an "excuse".

The FDs weren't worth paying attention to most times so developing the ability and habit of "looking through the FDs" to the raw data behind occurred naturally. As good as they were, I looked past the Airbus FDs all the time to see what the raw data was doing - if I liked it, I followed them. If the discrepancy was either large or going to stay a while because they were telling us something that I didn't want done with the airplane, I had them turned off. They were helpful during an ILS tho'.
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Old 17th Dec 2012, 01:35
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JF, that will be a big factor in the AF RIO-Paris flight. They needed the experienced captain on rest break to help them but he wasn't there. Yes you can hire low time pilots but you need someone up there who can hand fly an automatic airplane that is not automatic when the autopilot kicks off. Probably the same reason the Lear in Mexico went down.
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Old 17th Dec 2012, 07:27
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Experience does not mean perfection. You can have an experienced pilot with poor knowledge or an experienced pilot with poor flying skills. Even the ones with great knowledge and flying skill can become overwhelmed when they find themselves in certain emergency situations.

We have seen accidents happen where experienced Pilots were unable to identify and recover from a stall but their supposed inexperienced first officers were able to identify the stall. This is just an example.

Bottom line is is, even though we need experience, proper and intensive training goes a long way as well.
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Old 17th Dec 2012, 13:08
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FLYDHC8:

Bottom line is is, even though we need experience, proper and intensive training goes a long way as well.
A good example in the light aircraft arena is the large percentage of casual instrument pilots who cannot master the sophisticated light airplane RNAV systems of today.
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Old 17th Dec 2012, 20:38
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Bonin was 34. "Better old pilot than good pilot "...
Very stupid remark. How can someone become OLD pilot if he or she was not GOOD ???

 
Old 17th Dec 2012, 21:32
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old pilots can be just LUCKY not good...

bubbers...very interesting about the girl and the flight director. sort of disturbing really. if I had ''screwed up'' I would feel badly but acknowledge it and learn from it...not STOMP OFF the plane.

sheesh.

On the DC9 we had the collins FD109...with the ''howard johnson roof'' cue (single cue, not the two sticks)...and it really worked very well, of course one can never completely trust anything.

understanding flying takes time and imagination...
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Old 17th Dec 2012, 23:18
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bubbers44:

It seems important that the FAA standards only apply, not TWA SOP's for the rest of us.
The bottom line for any 121 operator is its ops specs.
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Old 21st Dec 2012, 03:33
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Just to add something,

As per Mexican Regs in order to be PIC of an aircraft with MTOW more than 12500 you need an ATP, and in order to hold an ATP you need to be less than 65 years old. So it looks like this operation wasn't legal from both sides of the border, and there is no night VFR in Mexico, only 10 NM from an airport or in special airspaces like Mexico city.

Whatever the case, very strange accident.

Cheers
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Old 21st Dec 2012, 22:30
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Question

If the Captain was not legal to fly in Mexico due to his age, how was he able to file a flight plan? The comandancia could find itself having to do a lot of explaining...
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Old 22nd Dec 2012, 00:32
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He wasn't flying as a commercial pilot so could fly past 65.
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Old 22nd Dec 2012, 00:47
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Many of my friends do. I chose not to. Why keep pushing it. You made it through an entire career with no problem and now try to push further to see what happens?
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Old 22nd Dec 2012, 01:29
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Arpster....Don't know where you are coming from ref: "LOC" minimums, but I have over 6,000 hrs PIC ont the 727 worldwide and a "raw data" ILS was the norm...FD is nice to have, but simply by the virture of your ATP, you are deemed qualified to conduct this approach without a F/D...If you can't manage it...shame on you...move 3' back to the right seat, or better yet, turn your certificate back into the FAA....
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Old 22nd Dec 2012, 08:27
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My first 727 job was as a captain. My main interest was trying to figure out what the FE was doing, not ever having one before. One day I made him nervous by looking back at his panel and he asked what I was looking for. I said why do the left and center engines have 15 KW loads and the right one zero? He said the right engine light is not illuminated. I asked him to press to test the light and the light was burned out so we took off with only two generators working.

A long time ago a 727 was lost at night taking off from LAX at night with two generators and another was lost overloading the final one and losing everything. That might have been the reason for standby instruments as we have now.

I don't think the Lears I flew had standby instruments. I recall one midnight departure out of DCA with Hollywood movie people on board when the lights on the instrument panel went bright and one generator dropped off line. I saw the voltage off scale so turned the operating generator off. The one that had kicked off picked up the load and voltage returned to normal 28 VDC. The next day I looked through our systems check list and nothing covered our problem that night. Maintenance found a cannon plug with a short circuit causing our problem. The high voltage may have damaged all of our systems if I had let it continue. I'm not saying this happened in their case but sometimes unusual things happen.
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Old 22nd Dec 2012, 17:57
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Bubbers44..."Many of my friends do. I chose not to. Why keep pushing it. You made it through an entire career with no problem and now try to push further to see what happens?"

Not everyone ages at the same rate, or even begins their career with the same capabilities. That's why age 65 is so arbitrary, and essentially unfair.

There are Navy SEAL types in this world and there are pencil pushers. Not all people are equal in ability. Its a blanket "solution" for an individual issue, but so typical of bureaucracies.

I'm tired of society being dumbed down to the lowest common denominator. Humankind is better than that weak solution. Someday I'll be incapable, but not yet.

"A man's got to know his limitations." --Harry Callahan
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