Air France jet clips smaller plane at New York's JFK airport
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A polite question - has anything been heard about the condition of the passengers on the CRJ or does no news mean that nobody sustained any injury worth mentioning in the press?
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Any more on the story/rumour that delta was stopped short after almost being hit by a truck on taxi in?
Just how many different agencies control the ground movements at/around this terminal........
Just how many different agencies control the ground movements at/around this terminal........
As I have already commented in a previous post, 99% of the people on this forum have absolutely no experience of taxiing a wide-body aircraft around JFK at night (or even by day for that matter).
Like everyone else in ATC at JFK, the Ground Controllers are amongst the busiest human beings on this planet.
The traffic, especially in the rush hours, is so intense that they simply do not have time to have what we who are used to operating at relatively quiet airports such as Heathrow or Gatwick would call a normal conversation.
How can any of you out there expect a Ground Controller at JFK to notice that a regional jet has not quite got on his company stand unless the captain buts in with a warning that he is not exactly where he is supposed to be?
Bear in mind that the Ground Controller simply cannot see the whole airfield even if he had time to look.
Then we can get down to governance.
I had an incident one night at Kennedy which happened on the ramp. The FAA were on my cockpit almost before I had closed the fuel levers, but once the inspector had established that the incident happened after I had left the taxiway and that his Ground Controller was not involved, then it was a matter for the New York Port Authority who controlled all of the terminals and he was off like a rat up a drainpipe!
Like everyone else in ATC at JFK, the Ground Controllers are amongst the busiest human beings on this planet.
The traffic, especially in the rush hours, is so intense that they simply do not have time to have what we who are used to operating at relatively quiet airports such as Heathrow or Gatwick would call a normal conversation.
How can any of you out there expect a Ground Controller at JFK to notice that a regional jet has not quite got on his company stand unless the captain buts in with a warning that he is not exactly where he is supposed to be?
Bear in mind that the Ground Controller simply cannot see the whole airfield even if he had time to look.
Then we can get down to governance.
I had an incident one night at Kennedy which happened on the ramp. The FAA were on my cockpit almost before I had closed the fuel levers, but once the inspector had established that the incident happened after I had left the taxiway and that his Ground Controller was not involved, then it was a matter for the New York Port Authority who controlled all of the terminals and he was off like a rat up a drainpipe!
Beware - Engineer with PPl commentary.
I have heard suggestions of lasers or forward facing camera that could be added to enhance situational awareness for the flight crew during taxi. These each have their drawbacks. I have not yet heard a suggestion to use sonar. This technology is use on autos and trucks to aid in parking. Sonar beams can be highly directed and provide range information as will as obstruction direction. This combined with a smart processing algorithm that takes into account speed and tiller position could be used to predict an imminent collision. An aural warning could be used to alert the flight crew.
I can't think of any drawbacks to this solution, and it is not expensive to implement.
I have heard suggestions of lasers or forward facing camera that could be added to enhance situational awareness for the flight crew during taxi. These each have their drawbacks. I have not yet heard a suggestion to use sonar. This technology is use on autos and trucks to aid in parking. Sonar beams can be highly directed and provide range information as will as obstruction direction. This combined with a smart processing algorithm that takes into account speed and tiller position could be used to predict an imminent collision. An aural warning could be used to alert the flight crew.
I can't think of any drawbacks to this solution, and it is not expensive to implement.
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too much again ??
I am really sorry that some of the members in this thread felt "stepped on their toes" or as is a phrase "I came too close to someones house" with my choosen wording in the previous post.
I am well aware of the differences on the two sides of the Radio/RADAR. Imagination also stretches far enough to understand the problems and concerns on the airborne side of my former business. Thats why there is still great respect and appreciation about the professionalism practiced.
Never the less, I think it is not undue to point to obvious information that may have played a major or attributive role in the event that is discussed in this thread.
I fully underwrite, using a phrase again, that "caution and vigilance are the better part of heroism" Means, of cause it is pilots task not to run into an obstacle - if !!!! he has a chance to realize there is something in his way.
But in the case at hand, even before an investigation has shown any final facts and responsibilties, a whole thunderstorm - thats my opinion - of uncomfortable comments are hailing on those AF pilots.
Finally, I think I can imagine the stress and the probably uncomfortable working conditions on a TWR like KJFK. Wouldn´t like to swap!!
Still, in times where even small countries allow themself the luxury of Aerodrome Radar, on an major aerodrome like JFK there should be no point of invisible parts of the Manoeuvring Area.
I am well aware of the differences on the two sides of the Radio/RADAR. Imagination also stretches far enough to understand the problems and concerns on the airborne side of my former business. Thats why there is still great respect and appreciation about the professionalism practiced.
Never the less, I think it is not undue to point to obvious information that may have played a major or attributive role in the event that is discussed in this thread.
I fully underwrite, using a phrase again, that "caution and vigilance are the better part of heroism" Means, of cause it is pilots task not to run into an obstacle - if !!!! he has a chance to realize there is something in his way.
But in the case at hand, even before an investigation has shown any final facts and responsibilties, a whole thunderstorm - thats my opinion - of uncomfortable comments are hailing on those AF pilots.
Finally, I think I can imagine the stress and the probably uncomfortable working conditions on a TWR like KJFK. Wouldn´t like to swap!!
Still, in times where even small countries allow themself the luxury of Aerodrome Radar, on an major aerodrome like JFK there should be no point of invisible parts of the Manoeuvring Area.
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I'm surprised that so many pilots believe that getting a taxi clearance means that the intended taxi route is clear of obstacles.
Reading their posts I'm not surprised that these accidents occur.
Reading their posts I'm not surprised that these accidents occur.
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As I have already commented in a previous post, 99% of the people on this forum have absolutely no experience of taxiing a wide-body aircraft around JFK at night (or even by day for that matter).
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Still, in times where even small countries allow themself the luxury of Aerodrome Radar, on an major aerodrome like JFK there should be no point of invisible parts of the Manoeuvring Area.
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KKoran
Yep, thought so. But wasn´t there some years ago another competitive desighn introduced at the west coast?? Thought hat produced better - higher fidelity - information. The name was something with "Amass". Came too late or was too expensive ??
Anyway, I think someone has to work on that KJFK case - the one or the other direction.
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Anyway, I think someone has to work on that KJFK case - the one or the other direction.
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clunkdriver
I am glad that with all the sophistication going on in nowadays world people haven´t found a way to fumble on the "North Atlantic Oscillation". Now and than even in those Gulf Stream pampered states on the other side of the pond real winter occures !!
Glad for you and your fellow companions in your homecountry that you are used to and trained to master such events.
By the way "Third World" can happen everywhere, needs only few components.
Just to remind those having English as there mother tongue, ICAO regulations mention a total of 6 languages to be used in aviation fields, English, Arabic,Chinese,French, Russian and Spanish.
Of course it is legal to use these languages in their native environment, as practice and experience shows to many of those flying around in this world.
And therefore, who in the world is brave ?? enough to expect that those used to speak a different language can not easily brought to their linguistic limits???
My experience has told me spending few more seconds for clear and understood instructions can save many minutes of otherwise needed time.
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Glad for you and your fellow companions in your homecountry that you are used to and trained to master such events.
By the way "Third World" can happen everywhere, needs only few components.
Just to remind those having English as there mother tongue, ICAO regulations mention a total of 6 languages to be used in aviation fields, English, Arabic,Chinese,French, Russian and Spanish.
Of course it is legal to use these languages in their native environment, as practice and experience shows to many of those flying around in this world.
And therefore, who in the world is brave ?? enough to expect that those used to speak a different language can not easily brought to their linguistic limits???
My experience has told me spending few more seconds for clear and understood instructions can save many minutes of otherwise needed time.
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JW411 - Do some research into the number of movements at JFK and LHR then you might see the comedy in describing LHR as "quiet". It may seem quiet but that's simply because the air traffic controllers make it seem that way. If you can find the audio on the net of the BA 777 accident there a couple of years ago then you'll see what I mean.
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airport ranking
LoopdeLoop:
May be this link is of help. It´s the German Wiki site but the numbers everyone can read I guess.
Liste der größten Flughäfen nach Passagieraufkommen
Hope it works.
By the way, I agree ! the amount of chatter says nothing about the real amount of traffic handled, especially when homebread phrases are used and not ICAO standard.
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May be this link is of help. It´s the German Wiki site but the numbers everyone can read I guess.
Liste der größten Flughäfen nach Passagieraufkommen
Hope it works.
By the way, I agree ! the amount of chatter says nothing about the real amount of traffic handled, especially when homebread phrases are used and not ICAO standard.
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Annex14,
Here's the relevant Wiki link in English:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World%2...ffic_movements
Your link was to the ranking of busiest by passenger movements, putting LHR at #4. The relevant figure here (in my opinion) is the number of total plane movements, which I linked to, with LHR at #13...both rankings put LHR as "busier" than JFK, but far behind other US airports.
Here's the relevant Wiki link in English:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World%2...ffic_movements
Your link was to the ranking of busiest by passenger movements, putting LHR at #4. The relevant figure here (in my opinion) is the number of total plane movements, which I linked to, with LHR at #13...both rankings put LHR as "busier" than JFK, but far behind other US airports.
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MikeNYC
Thanks a lot, that is the listing I was looking for. This one says a lot more and still it shows what I assumed, JFK behind London, Paris and Frankfurt. Except for CDG the others were built at a comparable timeframe as JFK, but I haven´t heard of similar problems caused by airport layout. Could it be that "cost saving" or "gain maximation" has stopped cold any good intention of change ??
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Annex 14,
AMASS is a system that provides an alert to controllers of a potential situation (primarily a runway incursion). It uses data from a standard ASDE (aerodrome) radar, so the fidelity would be no better.
AMASS is a system that provides an alert to controllers of a potential situation (primarily a runway incursion). It uses data from a standard ASDE (aerodrome) radar, so the fidelity would be no better.
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@ atepster :" One good way to avoid JFK is simply not have New York as a destination. It is Paris with a New York accent. Most of us choose to avoid the place(s). " (can someone tell me how to get the quotes in if I hit quote? Doesn't work for me)
Eh - have you been in Paris or NYC? Some people though say it (NYC) is the most exciting city in the world. One thing it certainly does, which is it has members of all peoples all over the world which alone makes it a fascinating place? Pretty it ain't - but fascinating it is.
Back to AF and the 380...
Eh - have you been in Paris or NYC? Some people though say it (NYC) is the most exciting city in the world. One thing it certainly does, which is it has members of all peoples all over the world which alone makes it a fascinating place? Pretty it ain't - but fascinating it is.
Back to AF and the 380...
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Might make more sense to look at traffic movement at certain hours as there are certain times of the day when it is just insane there. Especially in the evening when the WB go out to Europe you can sit for an hour or more taxying (no, not doing that myself, I let someone else drive)...
Two Freqs
One of the problems at many US airfields-certainly JFK and LAX-is that the ramp is 'owned' by (usually) a company with it's own freq whereas the taxiways are controlled by the ATC tower. This has probably provided the conflict in this instance. The commuter had signed off from the freq that the A380 was on and probably had no knwoledge that the A380 was bearing down on him.
This happens nowhere else in the world so talk of 'busiest airfield' is wide of the mark. At LHR even though the ground control is sometimes split at busy times into North and South (as at LAX) the controller looks after the a/c until it's parked, not until it's about to go into the ramp area.
This happens nowhere else in the world so talk of 'busiest airfield' is wide of the mark. At LHR even though the ground control is sometimes split at busy times into North and South (as at LAX) the controller looks after the a/c until it's parked, not until it's about to go into the ramp area.
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Not meant to be condescending but surprised by his argument, thus the question. And no, I am not familiar with who he (aterpster) is and quite frankly it doesn't matter to me as I think his argument is wrong (not the person) - and the argument should be jusged independent of the person based on facts (I am a scientist after all). He could be Delanoe or Bloomberg for that matter...
Paris with a New York accent? Paris goes back to the Romans, has churches going back to 1200 DC or earlier, not to mention the Louvre (we have the Metropolitan but that is not in a former royal palace). But I agree, that this is not worth arguing over (and I love Paris btw). So - enlighten me, always eager to learn. And I don't want to distract the thread from the real issue.
Paris with a New York accent? Paris goes back to the Romans, has churches going back to 1200 DC or earlier, not to mention the Louvre (we have the Metropolitan but that is not in a former royal palace). But I agree, that this is not worth arguing over (and I love Paris btw). So - enlighten me, always eager to learn. And I don't want to distract the thread from the real issue.