Air France jet clips smaller plane at New York's JFK airport

[Ditchdigger]

Maybe the tails of RJs should be painted the same color as hi-vis clothing....

[Skittles]

Blame who you want, but the suggestions that you should know exactly where your wing tips are on aircraft of this size are ridiculous.

Most people couldn't tell you where the back end of your Ford Focus is, let alone something which is hundreds of feet away. It's not ignorance or inability, it's one of those irritating human conditions on par with not being able to see through walls.

Can you become familiar enough to make a good estimate? Yes, of course, but it's an impossibility to do it within a few feet.

[Hotel Tango]

What do you think all those lines are for Skittles? If you're on the centerline than you know your wings are inside the wing clearance lines (see picture above). It would have been quite evident that the 145 was sticking out. I think they just assumed (poor airmanship) that the 145 would be clear by the time they got to that point and didn't expect it to stop short as it did. Pure speculation of course.

[Skittles]

As I said, I'm not saying they're devoid of blame or shouldn't have been expected to observe the unusual position of aircraft - I'm just saying that if there's anyone on here who can tell me that they can accurately identify the position of a wingtip on a 747/A380 etc then I'll happily call them a liar.

[CDRW]

Skittles - well said - again and again - the likes of aviators who can sit there and say" yes I know exactly where the wing tip is, yes I know exactly how far that ERJ tail is, Yes I know I got 4ft6in because the ERJ tail appears to be inside the line" is all bollocks! And misd-agin it was not "right in front of them".

If every time we think "it looks to close" and stop and ask for a wing walker then most US airports would grind to a halt.

[By George]

I hate to disagree and sound like a 'know it all' but on the 400 the wing tips are not only clearly in view but the winglet greatly helps in judging the distance. On a sunny day you can also see the shadow, some times of both the wing-tip and the obstacle.

[Hotel Tango]

But itīs not a question of being able to see or not to see your wing tips. Itīs a question of situational awareness and good airmanship. Although the 145 was not "right in front of them" it was most evidently outside the designated clearance area. I still go by my theory that they (747) assumed it would be clear and got caught when the (145) stopped unexpectedly short (most probably on ramp frequency and not ATC frequency at that point).

[Semaphore Sam]

Sir:
I operated the 747 (SP, 100, 200, 300), the 400, and the L-1011. There were numerous times I and the F/O were not sure of clearance...most times probably clearance was ok. The key is...if you are not sure, STOP. The answer to pressure by ATC, is "NO!", and if more pressure is applied, "HELL NO!", with a little GFYourself implied. No Chief Pilot, or Flight Ops Manager, would dare question a Captain who said "I stopped because I was unsure of my wingtip clearance." I operated the same way in the US Air Force...if there was one UNFORGIVEN incident there, it was hitting a wingtip. Nobody EVER was punished for refusing to take a chance on clearance, but, if some poor chump 'took a chance', and hit, there was NO forgiveness. If there is ANY doubt whatever, STOP. There is NO downside for that (and, you are on the clock anyway). Huge downside for taking the slightest chance...your record, your career, etc. etc. No excuse allowed for poor vis, nighttime, etc etc. One safe answer..."STOP THE AIRCRAFT". Sam

[Island-Flyer]

Semaphore hit the nail on the head. It's just basic airmanship - when in doubt stop until that doubt is eliminated.

[armchairpilot94116]

What if they were not even in doubt but sure that they will pass by without incident ?

[TopBunk]

What if they were not even in doubt but sure that they will pass by without incident ?

Then you would never have anything about it, because there would have been no collision!

Semaphore is 100% spot on ... if in any doubt you stop, and that includes any time (certainly in a large aircraft like a B747) when anything transgresses the painted lines. As he says, you career is on the line, any collision is totally indefensible.

ex-B747-400 Captain

[CDRW]

When I was a fresh faced youngster in the right seat with two shiny bars, the old bold codgers in the left seat, with dulled out four bars gave me this advice -

"when it looks like there is just enough space to pass - there is not enough space to pass. When it looks like there is plenty of space, that's when there is just enough space to ,"

"laddy, you only get one chance at a taxi accident"

So whilst I generally agree with Sam, Tango and Top Bunk, I think it is being over simplistic to simply state " Its basic airmanship" or "totally indefensible"

In the airlines I have been in this has happened 5 times ( over 23 yrs) and I was able to chat with all 5 and each and everyone "thought" they had enough space. They were not trying to sneak past. By the grace of Him upstairs this has not happened to me, but how many times have we gone into, say a new airport, and occasionally had the exhaust orifice pucker up a notch as you thought - gosh this is a bit tight, as you taxi exactly on the taxi line and all other aircraft appear to be behind the lines ( it there is a line).

[misd-agin]

CDRW - when they hit it with the wingtip of course it wasn't in front of them.

They either followed the RJ, gave way to the RJ, or the RJ was sitting there the entire time the EVA 747 approached the impact point.

In broad daylight it's obvious that the RJ is not clear of the taxiway. Either the crew wasn't clearing their taxi path or they assumed they would clear the RJ's tail.