Crash-Cork Airport
Good report but same cr@p as in the 70s.
Until EVERYONE has anonymous occurance reporting, full circulation of incidents, proper overseeing of all commercial operations by all relevant authorities and approach bans this will continue.
Terribly Sad.
Until EVERYONE has anonymous occurance reporting, full circulation of incidents, proper overseeing of all commercial operations by all relevant authorities and approach bans this will continue.
Terribly Sad.
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As stated above, an excellent report by the AAIU. The whole Manx2 setup from the very start was an absolute shambles. As an outsider looking in on the company, I wouldn't have touched it with a barge pole. Where do the lawyers start? Every facet of this company, or collection of companies was at fault. You only have to look at the history of Manx2 to see something was wrong. Aircraft toppling onto one wing when taxying in high winds, supposed tyre burst which led to an aircraft undergoing extensive maintenance in Germany, and an aircraft trying to perfect one main undercarriage landings. Yet where were the responsible regulatory authorities? Hiding behind the Byzantine organisation called EASA. I defy anyone concerned with aviation not to sit agape when reading pages 150 onwards.
A long list of errors which just shouldn't happen in this day and age. Hopefully lessons will be learnt - and enforced!
The AAIU should be commended for a very thorough and comprehensive report. They had their work cut out with this one!
The AAIU should be commended for a very thorough and comprehensive report. They had their work cut out with this one!
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Spicejetter,
"Citywing (a trading name of Citywing Aviation Services Limited) is an Isle of Man-based company that sells seats on scheduled air flights operated under charter from UK and EU-registered airlines Van Air Europe and Links Air."
Sounds like a very similar setup to me. As for the ownership structure change, it was apparently a management buyout. Meaning the same people who managed the company at the time of the accident are now still in charge.
Could be old wine in new bottles. I am not a lawyer but seeing these ownership changes also makes me wonder if someone is trying to evade possible liability claims here.
Personally I will think twice before ever buying a ticket from them, should I need to travel where they fly, and most probably try to avoid them.
Edit: after skimming through this whole thread, it seems to me there were some very well informed posts here, foreshadowing much of the findings and conclusions. Very scary that this kind of operation had been allowed to continue for too long.
"Citywing (a trading name of Citywing Aviation Services Limited) is an Isle of Man-based company that sells seats on scheduled air flights operated under charter from UK and EU-registered airlines Van Air Europe and Links Air."
Sounds like a very similar setup to me. As for the ownership structure change, it was apparently a management buyout. Meaning the same people who managed the company at the time of the accident are now still in charge.
Could be old wine in new bottles. I am not a lawyer but seeing these ownership changes also makes me wonder if someone is trying to evade possible liability claims here.
Personally I will think twice before ever buying a ticket from them, should I need to travel where they fly, and most probably try to avoid them.
Edit: after skimming through this whole thread, it seems to me there were some very well informed posts here, foreshadowing much of the findings and conclusions. Very scary that this kind of operation had been allowed to continue for too long.
Last edited by deptrai; 28th Jan 2014 at 14:57.
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RE Manx2
The management structure has not changed that much as far as I am aware Noel Hayes still has the same large majority shareholding in the new company as he did in the old.
I remember a quote from Wellington in the Sharpe series when the regiment lost the Kings Colours:- "Change the name remove the shame"
The pilots should not take all the blame the flight ops manager should not have allowed it to leave. If he had ordered a stand down for an hour they would probably all be alive now. Same as putting them both together and why did the other co-pilot have to go to BCN for an English proficiency test surely he could have done it in Belfast.
I remember a quote from Wellington in the Sharpe series when the regiment lost the Kings Colours:- "Change the name remove the shame"
The pilots should not take all the blame the flight ops manager should not have allowed it to leave. If he had ordered a stand down for an hour they would probably all be alive now. Same as putting them both together and why did the other co-pilot have to go to BCN for an English proficiency test surely he could have done it in Belfast.
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Can Manx2 (now Citywing) still be pursued now that they don't exist under the purchased name? Haven't heard them give any reaction today either along with both the AESA and EASA.
Certainly an excellent report by the AAIU and they are to be absolutely commended for it. Just hope all 11 recommendations are acted upon.
Certainly an excellent report by the AAIU and they are to be absolutely commended for it. Just hope all 11 recommendations are acted upon.
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jack1985
Spanish regulator had inadequate oversight on company that operated fatal Manx2 flight - Isle of Man Today
quote:
Manx2.com is now in liquidation.
Most of its operations have since been taken over by CityWing.
A statement from Manx2.com reads: We welcome the final report published today by the Air Accident Investigation Unit of the Irish Department of Transport (AAIU) which conducted a full and very detailed investigation into the crash in February 2011 of flight NM 7100 from Belfast to Cork, which was operated by Flightline BCN.
The devastating impact of the tragic accident at Cork three years ago is not something that the passing of time has diminished and the thoughts and sympathies of all those involved are first and foremost with the families of those who lost their lives and those who were injured.
Manx2 ceased trading in December 2012 but the former directors and employees of Manx2 continued to give the AAIB and the AAIU their fullest co-operation throughout the three years of the investigation to ensure that the full facts could be determined and any lessons learned to improve future air safety.
Manx2 contracted all the flying to EU airlines licensed and required, as was the operator [Flightline BCN], to operate in compliance with the stringent standards and controls of the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA), recognised to be among the most stringent in the world, under the oversight of their national aviation safety authorities.
Unfortunately, the report is clear that the prime causes of the accident were decisions made by the Flightline crew in adverse weather conditions, compounded by inappropriate crew rostering by the operator and a significant lack of oversight by the Spanish air safety authority.
quote:
Manx2.com is now in liquidation.
Most of its operations have since been taken over by CityWing.
A statement from Manx2.com reads: We welcome the final report published today by the Air Accident Investigation Unit of the Irish Department of Transport (AAIU) which conducted a full and very detailed investigation into the crash in February 2011 of flight NM 7100 from Belfast to Cork, which was operated by Flightline BCN.
The devastating impact of the tragic accident at Cork three years ago is not something that the passing of time has diminished and the thoughts and sympathies of all those involved are first and foremost with the families of those who lost their lives and those who were injured.
Manx2 ceased trading in December 2012 but the former directors and employees of Manx2 continued to give the AAIB and the AAIU their fullest co-operation throughout the three years of the investigation to ensure that the full facts could be determined and any lessons learned to improve future air safety.
Manx2 contracted all the flying to EU airlines licensed and required, as was the operator [Flightline BCN], to operate in compliance with the stringent standards and controls of the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA), recognised to be among the most stringent in the world, under the oversight of their national aviation safety authorities.
Unfortunately, the report is clear that the prime causes of the accident were decisions made by the Flightline crew in adverse weather conditions, compounded by inappropriate crew rostering by the operator and a significant lack of oversight by the Spanish air safety authority.
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Manx2 is in liquidation they think that will cut it? They bought it out transferred the assets and shut it down to get rid of the Cork accident and any liability!
Typical spin, ''we hope to improve air safety'' ... but forgot to mention we contributed to this accident through improper practices which are clarified in the report by the AAIU, which we will continue to praise.
Hope Citywing go down the tube before it gets messy, carriers like them are what's wrong with this industry along with Air Lada and Flightline - I'd like to point out I'm not seeking to hurt any staff in any of those company's - It's the management I'm laying this with.
The accident basically was a direct consequence of fatigue, something that was caused by these 3 companies. There's your connection Citywing.
The AAIU found Manx2 didn't really communicate with Flightline so how are they responsible for inappropriate rostering according to your constant changing schedule Citywing,
The fact those pilots also shouldn't have been removing seats and weren't qualified to do so (even though there is no connection with the accident and that) shows how quick Manx2 were to flout regulations where they liked, they put those pilots up in a house in Belfast and gave them a car to use, something they weren't seeing enough of because they were not getting adequate rest.
They share responsibility.
Typical spin, ''we hope to improve air safety'' ... but forgot to mention we contributed to this accident through improper practices which are clarified in the report by the AAIU, which we will continue to praise.
Hope Citywing go down the tube before it gets messy, carriers like them are what's wrong with this industry along with Air Lada and Flightline - I'd like to point out I'm not seeking to hurt any staff in any of those company's - It's the management I'm laying this with.
The accident basically was a direct consequence of fatigue, something that was caused by these 3 companies. There's your connection Citywing.
The AAIU found Manx2 didn't really communicate with Flightline so how are they responsible for inappropriate rostering according to your constant changing schedule Citywing,
Unfortunately, the report is clear that the prime causes of the accident were decisions made by the Flightline crew in adverse weather conditions, compounded by inappropriate crew rostering by the operator and a significant lack of oversight by the Spanish air safety authority.
They share responsibility.
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The PF (co-pilot) acknowledged the fact that the PNF (commander) took control of the thrust levers in the final approach. The PNF retarded the thrust levers briefly, only the No.1 engine went into reverse (-9% torque) the No.2 engine stayed at 0% (idle) due to the both trust levers being out of asymmetry, this was coincident with the plane rolling left which the AAIU believes prompted the PF to input the flight controls to the right, subsequently the application of power to commence the G/A at 100ft coincided with the commencement of a rapid roll to the right and loss of control and the subsequent crash.
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First of all my thoughts are with those involved in this awful accident.
Secondly, I think it's disgusting how Manx2 can just close up and continue as a new company. Exactly the same but with a different name. I know it's not that simple in a legal sense but that's what I see has happened here.
My local news just said "manx2 shut down without ever apologising for the accident". There was no mention that actually the set up is still there and they operate several flights a week from our local airport.
Nothing has changed in the structure of the company, and this could happen again.
But that's business. Do your worst, shut up shop and come back under a new name ready to strike again. It's the travelling public who I worry about. Fair enough the current suppliers to Citywing seem to be well proven, but there's nothing to stop them hiring in some two bob tin pot operation and the public will be none the wiser.
Secondly, I think it's disgusting how Manx2 can just close up and continue as a new company. Exactly the same but with a different name. I know it's not that simple in a legal sense but that's what I see has happened here.
My local news just said "manx2 shut down without ever apologising for the accident". There was no mention that actually the set up is still there and they operate several flights a week from our local airport.
Nothing has changed in the structure of the company, and this could happen again.
But that's business. Do your worst, shut up shop and come back under a new name ready to strike again. It's the travelling public who I worry about. Fair enough the current suppliers to Citywing seem to be well proven, but there's nothing to stop them hiring in some two bob tin pot operation and the public will be none the wiser.
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Any idea why reverse was selected, or why the thrust levers (or whatever they're called in a TP) were retarded by the PNF without the runway in sight?
Yeah, but why? Care to speculate?
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Didn't read all of it yet, but the flight idle stop on the Metro was at best flimsy, and if worn, the levers could be moved inadvertently below the flight idle position without lifting the triggers...a low flight idle fuel flow could also cause negative torque situation with power levers at the flight idle position...it has been the cause of more than one Metro/Merlin accident
Let's not forget the English gentleman who was a Captain on this route before quitting, and subsequently took his own life because he felt he could have prevented this accident if he had stayed with these B*****ds or the Atcos and members of the emergency services who needed extensive counselling.
They just have a management buy out and change the name to run from the safety circus they created, the litigation and bad press
They just have a management buy out and change the name to run from the safety circus they created, the litigation and bad press
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Secondly, I think it's disgusting how Manx2 can just close up and continue as a new company. Exactly the same but with a different name. I know it's not that simple in a legal sense but that's what I see has happened here.
...
But that's business. Do your worst, shut up shop and come back under a new name ready to strike again. It's the travelling public who I worry about. Fair enough the current suppliers to Citywing seem to be well proven, but there's nothing to stop them hiring in some two bob tin pot operation and the public will be none the wiser.
...
But that's business. Do your worst, shut up shop and come back under a new name ready to strike again. It's the travelling public who I worry about. Fair enough the current suppliers to Citywing seem to be well proven, but there's nothing to stop them hiring in some two bob tin pot operation and the public will be none the wiser.
This mode of operation might be distasteful to some, but as the report and subsequent to the accident shows, is perfectly legal. The CAA picked up Manx2 on some minor website breaches which they corrected, and the CAA continued oversight with seemingly no concern.
EASA and the Spanish CAA bear the responsibility for the "two bob tin pot operation" not being open to UK / Irish scrutiny. It's what our politicians have signed up to... and at heart that is where the basic cause lies, and I doubt will be changed.
In summary, what do you find Manx2 have done either illegally, or even just immorally?
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Manx2 reborn
Well I think that this virtual airline is a problem for us all,
Now they have a Czech airline based in IOM flying domestic uk routes ,
I hope that van air are being overseen by their state authority but I wouldn't bet on it , manx2 or city wing, just bad news for aviation.
Now they have a Czech airline based in IOM flying domestic uk routes ,
I hope that van air are being overseen by their state authority but I wouldn't bet on it , manx2 or city wing, just bad news for aviation.
Manx2
Jack 1985 states - The fact those pilots also shouldn't have been removing seats and weren't qualified to do so (even though there is no connection with the accident and that) shows how quick Manx2 were to flout regulations where they liked, they put those pilots up in a house in Belfast and gave them a car to use, something they weren't seeing enough of because they were not getting adequate rest.
Please explain what your statement has to with Manx2. The pilots were not employed by Manx2 and the aircraft was not anything to do with Manx2 whilst operating the Post Office flights that required the seats to be removed. The owner of the aircraft made the arrangements for the Post Office flights, not Manx2. The operator of the aircraft was responsible for the Crew rostering and adherance to flight time limits, not Manx 2.
So exactly what regulations were Manx2 quick to flout?
And before you ask, no I have nothing to do with Manx2/Citywing apart from being a regular passenger to/from the Isle of Man on the services they sell tickets on.
Please explain what your statement has to with Manx2. The pilots were not employed by Manx2 and the aircraft was not anything to do with Manx2 whilst operating the Post Office flights that required the seats to be removed. The owner of the aircraft made the arrangements for the Post Office flights, not Manx2. The operator of the aircraft was responsible for the Crew rostering and adherance to flight time limits, not Manx 2.
So exactly what regulations were Manx2 quick to flout?
And before you ask, no I have nothing to do with Manx2/Citywing apart from being a regular passenger to/from the Isle of Man on the services they sell tickets on.