Crash-Cork Airport

[BigFrank]

BBC programme TV vs Radio

TV programme from last night not easily available in Spain

But earlier BBC radio programme, Radio 4 "Face the facts" broadcast 2 or 3 weeks ago is available.

(Check the last 4 or 5 pages here and there was a direct link posted there I seem to remember.)

[kroack]

i already listen the radio broadcast. thanks!
let´s see if somebody uploads to youtube or similar.

for your info, the metro was totally prepared to make IFR approaches cat I.

[BigFrank]

Question for Kroack (BCN)

Can you tell us anything about Air Lada ?

[BigFrank]

Question to BOAC

"Air Lada not listed as a 'Spanish' operator by Aviation Safety Network and considered to be 'not a certified air carrier' by the EU"

Given the expression which you posted as above, and given my earlier post (strictly as a layman on my part) ¿ who exactly was legally responsible for operating this aircraft ? when it took off from Belfast ("UK") and attempted to land in Cork (Ireland).

(I presume nobody on here will waste my time with names of pilots who were also killed tragically. I mean the bosses obviously. And the company. Wherever it/they is/ are.)

[BOAC]

Frank - I cannot help - that was the result of a bit of Googling. You are in a 'grey area', I'm afraid, and one which I hope will be tightened up.

[dldkjdfljk]

For those that wish to download and save the programme click this link to go to rapidshare download site.

The programme video does not expire or have playback restrictions however the link itself on rapidshare may expire

http://tinyurl.com/62j2u74

[JSCL]

Can someone verify the above URL?

[mad_jock]

Just ran it with a Linux box of tricks its fine

[kroack]

BigFrank you have a private message

BigFrank you have a private message

[runway30]

The operator of an aircraft for the purpose of Public Transport has to hold an AOC. The 'operator' is defined as the person for the time being having the management of the aircraft. In the programme Flightline BCN, named as the AOC holder, clearly didn't have management of the aircraft, they didn't even know what operations it was undertaking or control of the crew. Therefore the question now has to be, was this aircraft being operated illegally?

[BigFrank]

Reply to BOAC

Thanks for the info.

"Grey area..." Perhaps we should offer this to the TEFL operatives of the world as an example of "typical English/ British understatement" ?

[Sunnyjohn]

Air Lada

Air Lada operate one Metro which is owned by Euro Continental Air, who also own a second Metro which is operated by Flightline BCN. It is my belief that these three companies are one and the same but I am unable to find the facts to prove it. The Metro in the Cork accident was owned by Euro Continental Air and operated by Flightline BCN. One or all of these three companies must have hired the crew and arranged for their training.

[Sunnyjohn]

Video File Link

dldkjdfljk - Thanks for this, it worked fine. A well-researched programme - well done BBC 1 NI.

[jumpseater]

Sj
One or all of these three companies must have hired the crew and arranged for their training.

Hired, probably. 'Training' however is a bit vague. The investigation (assuming its similar to a UK in content/context) will look at the career path/history of the crew, including hours flown on type etc. Both may have come to the airline with a Metro type rating and hours on type, or may have done the type rating conversion with the airline in house, or a mix of both.

R30
The 'operator' is defined as the person for the time being having the management of the aircraft. In the programme Flightline BCN, named as the AOC holder, clearly didn't have management of the aircraft, they didn't even know what operations it was undertaking or control of the crew.

The flightplan will need to have been filed with CFMU/Eurocontrol, and the airframe and crew will need to have been 'allocated' to the flight by some one/organisation. The crew will have been rostered and known to report at airport X to brief and fly airframe Y to airport Z. To fly the schedule the organisation managing the flying programme will have known and scheduled to have an aircraft at Belfast to fly the route. Therefore there will be an easily identifiable organiser, (to the investigators), of that basic requirement to operate that schedule.

Fuel etc and handling issues will need to have been dealt with on a daily basis and the aircraft will need to have had line maintenance by an organisation too. Those personnel and organisation/s organising the essential requirements above, (a/c alloc / crew / handling / Mx), would likely be considered to be undertaking the 'management' of the airframe and crew.

[BigFrank]

BBC (NI) Spotlight programme: AIR LADA´s lack of visibility

Despite my confident post, nothing came out of the ether.

Could anyone who watched this closely tell me how the BBC deals with the issue of not being able to contact Air Lada. Do they for instance present this as just a minor hiccup or as a major issue that the company which operated (sic) the plane in question cannot be located ?

My suspicions, voiced earlier, that Air Lada = Linéas Aéreas de Andalucía seem to be correct. One of the directors of LAA is a lawyer in Andalucía it seems. Will he plead "ignorance of the law" I wonder, if indeed it is his company ?

And the question remains; why does Air Lada not come up on a search of commercial names in Spain ?

[forget]

BigFrank, you've probably seen this. 19 April 2011 amending Regulation (EC) No 474/2006 establishing the Community list of air carriers which are subject to an operating ban within the Community.

Do a word search on 'lada'.

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/...10:0034:EN:PDF

[mad_jock]

The prog was 50% interviews with pax and industry type folk. Most of it was pretty good apart from the expert saying the aircraft was unsuitable for flying in IMC because it didn't have efis and a flight director. They showed a sim with a Low viz approach which to be honest was pretty tame. They didn't show a real bum twitcher were you only get the first 2 lights. They showed the whole of the approach light tree from 200ft.

Then they started about the pilot experence and the FO, with an interview with his dad. Nothing suprising there apart from he only had 17 hours on type. I presume 1 hour of that would have been his base check. So in less than 16 hours he was line trained and sent out onto the line with a 1 week on the line Captain. He had mostly done night freight which as we all know a night Low viz approach is a different beast to a day one.

Then about a third was about the back office stuff about operational control which was really quite shocking. There is a triangle, one of the companys has dissappeared with several domestic addresses but nobody contactable (pilots and aircraft). The AOC holder saying that its not there problem because they didn't supply the pilots. And then ticket seller saying that thats all they do.

And they do think it was a major part of the story but linked in to the whole operational control issue.

Now I will state this is only a rumour I heard on the ramp.

Air Lada isn't in anway or form a commercial operator. The planes were owned/leased by some of the pilots flying them. They then piggy backed off someone elses AOC when they had a contract.

[BigFrank]

Details of Spotlight programme

Many thanks.

Obviously the triangle on (non) responsibility is the core of the issue.

It seems like an attempt to organise a piss up in a brewery where everyone presumed that everyone else had sorted out the bottles and the glasses.

Except that with six people dead there is nothing to laugh about whatsoever.

And no way of knowing how many flights are operating today under the same conditions of confusion and ir-responsibility.

[Super VC-10]

Any connection between Air Lada / Linéas Aéreas de Andalucía and Ándalus Líneas Aéreas?

Ándalus Líneas Aéreas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[BigFrank]

Air Lada etc

Thanks.

I now accept now that Air Lada and "L A de A" are the same thing. Though why the coyness ????

The article on Wikipedia does quote one intriguing name which would lift us from the 5th division regional to the lowest realms of the Premier League i.e. Air Madrid.

This was a bottom of the market airline specialising in flights home to South America from Spain for the many immigrant workers who arrived here in the early part of the 21st century. It was not well thought of in many quarters and collapsed one Christmas about 3 years ago amidst very very very considerable economic, political and social rancour. I seem to remember that the actual coup de grâce took place when the Spanish aviation authorities finally withdrew its licence.

Wikipedia claims the people behind "L A de A" were ex-Air Madrid. ¿ Can anyone confirm this "Wiki-fact" ?