Crash-Cork Airport
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Mad jock wrote;
"O and 99% of pax don't give a toss what the situation is in operating an aircraft. All they care about is that one ticket seller is offering 56 quid and the other one 70 quid."
With all due respect, speaking as SLF that is faeces. We DON'T KNOW what the situation is in operating an aircraft, and we ASSUME that all is as it should be. I seriously think that if there were meaningful 'league tables' regarding airlines (there never will be for any number of reasons) then it WOULD make a difference.) How many people do you think seriously want to risk themselves and their families just to get a cheap flight/holiday? I talk to these people .. they are shocked and surprised at some of the things I've learned on here and pass on. How many SLF will actually KNOW where to go to read ANY accident report let alone the Cork one? How many just assume that an air accident is an air accident,just like a road accident is a road accident? A LOT. But I'll tell you this; even as SLF in the UK which isn't the most dangerous of places, if I take a flight I routinely have a look the airline. Most people don't. It never crosses their minds. Why should it? They don't when they catch a bus or train. And they don't see flying as much different.
"O and 99% of pax don't give a toss what the situation is in operating an aircraft. All they care about is that one ticket seller is offering 56 quid and the other one 70 quid."
With all due respect, speaking as SLF that is faeces. We DON'T KNOW what the situation is in operating an aircraft, and we ASSUME that all is as it should be. I seriously think that if there were meaningful 'league tables' regarding airlines (there never will be for any number of reasons) then it WOULD make a difference.) How many people do you think seriously want to risk themselves and their families just to get a cheap flight/holiday? I talk to these people .. they are shocked and surprised at some of the things I've learned on here and pass on. How many SLF will actually KNOW where to go to read ANY accident report let alone the Cork one? How many just assume that an air accident is an air accident,just like a road accident is a road accident? A LOT. But I'll tell you this; even as SLF in the UK which isn't the most dangerous of places, if I take a flight I routinely have a look the airline. Most people don't. It never crosses their minds. Why should it? They don't when they catch a bus or train. And they don't see flying as much different.
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With all due respect, speaking as SLF that is faeces
And BTW there are 4 films out there that are only allowed to be shown to professional engineers about what happens in a train crash. Its really not pretty.
And the Captain didn't definately pull them into beta. There are heap of issues with these engines with conditioning units off the torque gauges and it all comes off the maint of the aircraft. If they had gone into -9% torque that would have be 100 shp neg torque on one side with 60shp on the other. Although 160%difference is low compared to an engine failure at V1 its still alot of yaw I would expected that to be recorded.
Another technical issue is that the springs in the prop CAN'T bring the props out of beta in flight they just arn't strong enough, be it Dowerty or MaCauley. Its in all the flight manuals for the engines.
From my reading of the report is they started the GA from 100ft AGL (100 below mins) the accident happend after power was applied and they were getting it in both engines.
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Flight Idle is at 40 degrees PLA. Recorded angles were in the 30's. Power appears to have been re-applied after the stall warning. The TPE 331 and whoever's prop combination does not employ beta control in flight.
However, I bow to Mad Jock's superior number of posts.
However, I bow to Mad Jock's superior number of posts.
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Its nount to do with Post numbers.
And to be honest if I have got something wrong please tell me as I will add it to my store of info.
Beta to me is not only a blade angle but it also means that there is a transfer from the fuel controller to the prop pitch controller which then controls the fuel input. The beta tube moves a fair bit and the fuel controller controls the blade pitch and the prop pitch controller maintains the rpm. It produces a very marked decleration, the plane would have dropped like a brick.
The angles were never recorded they were assumed from the fuel flow.
I haven't flow the type but on my type with similar engines if the plane thinks its in the air and you move into beta there is an alarm triggered which you can hear from outside the aircraft. I don't know if the metro has such a warning but you would definately have heard it on the CVR on my type.
also to note
There is no mention of engine RPM in the report it could be that the overspeed gov had reduced the fuel flow.
And to be honest if I have got something wrong please tell me as I will add it to my store of info.
Beta to me is not only a blade angle but it also means that there is a transfer from the fuel controller to the prop pitch controller which then controls the fuel input. The beta tube moves a fair bit and the fuel controller controls the blade pitch and the prop pitch controller maintains the rpm. It produces a very marked decleration, the plane would have dropped like a brick.
The angles were never recorded they were assumed from the fuel flow.
I haven't flow the type but on my type with similar engines if the plane thinks its in the air and you move into beta there is an alarm triggered which you can hear from outside the aircraft. I don't know if the metro has such a warning but you would definately have heard it on the CVR on my type.
also to note
There is no mention of engine RPM in the report it could be that the overspeed gov had reduced the fuel flow.
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Post #1127; ownership etc
This one at least intrigues me:
"I believe the planes/buisness were owned by the other Captains.
There is the aircraft owner/Captains which provided aircraft, pilots and engineering."
What is the factual basis for these (otherwise speculative and/ or possibly mischievous) assertions ?
"I believe the planes/buisness were owned by the other Captains.
There is the aircraft owner/Captains which provided aircraft, pilots and engineering."
What is the factual basis for these (otherwise speculative and/ or possibly mischievous) assertions ?
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This one at least intrigues me:
"I believe the planes/buisness were owned by the other Captains.
There is the aircraft owner/Captains which provided aircraft, pilots and engineering."
What is the factual basis for these (otherwise speculative and/ or possibly mischievous) assertions ?
"I believe the planes/buisness were owned by the other Captains.
There is the aircraft owner/Captains which provided aircraft, pilots and engineering."
What is the factual basis for these (otherwise speculative and/ or possibly mischievous) assertions ?
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Maybe you could find out from the Spanish CAA if the owners hold ATPL's.
The second Metro is sitting on the apron in the IOM rotting .
From what I can see nobody has taken it out of service (there is a decomissioning work pack needs done before the aircraft is stored) and nobody is running the engines once a week.
Anyway its pretty easy for the investigation team to find out because in theory the AoC holder should have training files on every pilot that flys under their AOC.
The second Metro is sitting on the apron in the IOM rotting .
From what I can see nobody has taken it out of service (there is a decomissioning work pack needs done before the aircraft is stored) and nobody is running the engines once a week.
Anyway its pretty easy for the investigation team to find out because in theory the AoC holder should have training files on every pilot that flys under their AOC.
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re: lawsuit filed by co-pilot's family
Interesting, and I hope for their sake not too hasty. The final report may well not support them.
Statutes of limitation prohibit filing a claim more than a specified period of time after an event. In some jurisdictions, the time allowed is relatively short. The duration varies depending upon such factors as the country (or, as in the United States, the particular state) and the type of claim (e.g., different time limits may apply to claims for negligence, breach of contract, defamation, fraud, and wrongful death).
I don't know the law of Ireland (or other nations whose law potentially might be applicable depending upon the claim asserted). For the moment I'm inclined to give the family the benefit of the doubt regarding their motives until shown otherwise.
Though your point certainly is well taken, as are some of the concerns mentioned by other posters.
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...preserve any claims they might have (and thus could not await the final report).
Somehow I doubt it.
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"Which company - there were at least three involved, possibly two more on the Spanish side?"
AIRLADA was the main company, operated under flightline aoc. Manx 2 is not an airline, just a ticket seller. i hope the truth comes in the future, specially for the familys of the affected people.
AIRLADA was the main company, operated under flightline aoc. Manx 2 is not an airline, just a ticket seller. i hope the truth comes in the future, specially for the familys of the affected people.
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So are you saying that two Captains were the boss (sic) of Flightline or Air Lada? The crew of the crashed Metroliner at Cork were hired by either Air Lada or Flightline or possibly both but neither were owners of the companies. So exactly who are these mysterious Captains?
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¿ 2 + 2 = 4 ? ¡ Not however if the companies are based in Spain !
I for one am confused by the posts from kroack both here and in the past.
The last one says:
"the crew was from airlada and the other two captains where the boss of the airlada. i think they made a documentary on the bbc explaining all that."
How many people are mentioned in this post ? Four ?
I do not know the jargon of airlines but I believe the 2 (dead; epd/rip) crew on the plane are known as the Captain and the First Officer.
i) Am I right in thinking that you do not claim that either of these were owners of Air Lada ?
ii) Who then are "the other two captains" to whom you refer ?
iii) You claim that the BBC (Northern Ireland; not shown in GB as I remember) documentary "explain[s] all that."
I saw the documentary on a satellite repeat if I am not mistaken (there is mention of it by myself and others earlier in the thread including a then live online link to see it) but I have no recollection of this clarification of ownership by these two highly mysterious, at least to me, other captains. Quite the opposite.
As I remarked earlier the black hole of ownership was commented upon but to some very considerable extent passed over in that documentary. Legal issues obviously can compromise the ability of any organisation to report.
It would be most helpful if you, kroack, were to expand considerably on your knowledge whether in English or Spanish.
If you want to post in Spanish, machine translations apart, there are plenty of people on here only too willing to translate. Not least myself.
The longer your post, the better. At least in principle.
The last one says:
"the crew was from airlada and the other two captains where the boss of the airlada. i think they made a documentary on the bbc explaining all that."
How many people are mentioned in this post ? Four ?
I do not know the jargon of airlines but I believe the 2 (dead; epd/rip) crew on the plane are known as the Captain and the First Officer.
i) Am I right in thinking that you do not claim that either of these were owners of Air Lada ?
ii) Who then are "the other two captains" to whom you refer ?
iii) You claim that the BBC (Northern Ireland; not shown in GB as I remember) documentary "explain[s] all that."
I saw the documentary on a satellite repeat if I am not mistaken (there is mention of it by myself and others earlier in the thread including a then live online link to see it) but I have no recollection of this clarification of ownership by these two highly mysterious, at least to me, other captains. Quite the opposite.
As I remarked earlier the black hole of ownership was commented upon but to some very considerable extent passed over in that documentary. Legal issues obviously can compromise the ability of any organisation to report.
It would be most helpful if you, kroack, were to expand considerably on your knowledge whether in English or Spanish.
If you want to post in Spanish, machine translations apart, there are plenty of people on here only too willing to translate. Not least myself.
The longer your post, the better. At least in principle.
Last edited by BigFrank; 12th Mar 2012 at 10:53. Reason: Tidy up spelling and grammar
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Big frank I don't think any of us can give you the pointers towards the documentation that your looking for.
One of the reasons why the investigation is taking so long is the paper trail is more than likely extremely messy.
And everyone will be arse covering as well.
My info is the same as kroack's but its all come from contacts in the industry.
There is also a heap of other stuff which has rumoured to have gone on that none of us can comment on publically because we don't have any proof.
The report is going to be a humdinger of a report and I wouldn't be suprised if it going to be another year before its out. The technicalities of the accident will be realively simple. The rest of it is going to be extremely interesting with the potential of being extremely embaressing for NAA's.
The other thing as well is that there will be several legal cases as soon as its released which makes things even more complicated.
One of the reasons why the investigation is taking so long is the paper trail is more than likely extremely messy.
And everyone will be arse covering as well.
My info is the same as kroack's but its all come from contacts in the industry.
There is also a heap of other stuff which has rumoured to have gone on that none of us can comment on publically because we don't have any proof.
The report is going to be a humdinger of a report and I wouldn't be suprised if it going to be another year before its out. The technicalities of the accident will be realively simple. The rest of it is going to be extremely interesting with the potential of being extremely embaressing for NAA's.
The other thing as well is that there will be several legal cases as soon as its released which makes things even more complicated.
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The tangle of companies involved in this sorry saga is at my post 974. Flightline have update their website and if you can bear to fight through the mess of flash player drivel you will find that they currently have three aircraft available. Air Lada have disappeared off the face of the web. Euro Continental Air, who, you may recall, actually owned the aircraft, still appear to have an office in Valencia.
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Its usual to hold aircraft in a seperate company and lease back to protect the captial asset and for tax purposes.
The BBC went to that office and its some womans house and she hasn't seen them.
Anyway they had two metros, now they have one which hasn't moved or engines turn since the crash.
I think you will find Euro Continental Air and Airlada will eventually turn out to be run by the same people.
The BBC went to that office and its some womans house and she hasn't seen them.
Anyway they had two metros, now they have one which hasn't moved or engines turn since the crash.
I think you will find Euro Continental Air and Airlada will eventually turn out to be run by the same people.