Qantas A380 uncontained #2 engine failure
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: uk
Posts: 106
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
DevX posted about possible parallels with this uncontained Trent 1000 failure
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: overthehillsandmountains
Posts: 140
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Exploded engine for 787 was a Trent
"Industry sources say the failure, which is believed to have been uncontained, occurred in early August on a production 'Package A' model Trent 1000 engine that will power early 787-8 aircraft for launch customer All Nippon Airways, and has been initially traced to the single-stage intermediate pressure (IP) turbine."
Join Date: Dec 1998
Location: .
Posts: 2,997
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Qantas is saying it expects to resume A380 flights in 24 to 48 hours, following inspection.
Does that mean it knows what its looking for, and that it knows it's not a design problem?
R
(as for fixing the hole in the wing: bit of speedtape, bosh bosh, job done)
Does that mean it knows what its looking for, and that it knows it's not a design problem?
R
(as for fixing the hole in the wing: bit of speedtape, bosh bosh, job done)
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Johannesburg
Posts: 44
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Following letjet's thoughts, I wonder whether we are not reaching the limits of materials in these very large engines like the Trent 900. In Strength of Materials 101 we were taught that design had to take into account the materials used and that in mining, for instance, cables could not exceed a certain length, as they would fail under their own wieght. Due to demands for ever improving efficiencies and resultant higher combustion temperatures, the reciprical forces in a large engine like the Trent may very well be designed to be so near the limit of the materials used that any vibration, harmonic or outside influence could cause something to fail. I remember that a large 5 metre cooling fan at a power station turning at 900 rpm failed catastrophically due to lower than expected ambient temperature. These very large engines could very well be reaching the same limitations of materials.
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Belgium, near BRU
Age: 45
Posts: 38
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by njfly
Correct acronyms are as follows:
AR-AFFF alcohol-resistant aqueous film-forming foam
AR-FFFP alcohol-resistant film-forming fluoroprotein foam
Are you sure AR-AFFF and/or AR-FFFP are used in aircraft fire fighting equipment?
AR-AFFF alcohol-resistant aqueous film-forming foam
AR-FFFP alcohol-resistant film-forming fluoroprotein foam
Are you sure AR-AFFF and/or AR-FFFP are used in aircraft fire fighting equipment?
My mistake.I don't know what they uses in SIN but here in Belgium and ATC foam (AR-AFFF) is pretty standard. Though I'm not a professional firefighter I'm involved with firefighting (fire photographer (for fire & police) for near a decade / fire fighter at my company / president of a non profit organisation for emergency personnel, etc...) and the engines and tankers at our department are standard equipped with AR-AFFF foam. As I do remember correct so do the crashtenders at BRU (actually the newest addition carriers 1.000 liters with it). Looking at the color of the foam it does remind me a bit to the old 3M foams... The newer foams we are currently using aren't coloring so much anymore.
But to be 100% correct which foam it is I'll ask it at one of our officers who works also at the BRU airport firedepartement. I'll come back to it
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Belgium, near BRU
Age: 45
Posts: 38
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by 36050100
Is it feasable to re-engine RR A380's with engines from the other manufacturer ?
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Bristol
Posts: 184
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Also, stairs are the obvious choice; not that it mattered as they only disembarked on the RHS but a slide (if used on the LHS) could easily be ingested and then your problems are REALLY beginning.
I am in power generation, and I can assure you that any overspeed indication results in IMMEDIATE shutdown of that machine, never to run again until the reason has been determined and fixed.
It may surprise some on this forum - but most of the world does not have advanced degrees in materials engineering. So they (witnesses, journalists, local authorities) see a piece of unfamiliar - stuff - and describe it as best they can. I'm sure the folks on Batam can identify individually 37 different types of sea life by name from the local bays - which to a western pilot or engineer would be nothing but "fish."
I wonder whether we are not reaching the limits of materials in these very large engines like the Trent 900. In Strength of Materials 101 we were taught that design had to take into account the materials used
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Antipodes Islands
Posts: 94
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Stressed skin?
kwateow said :
The wing box upper skin at that point is about one inch thick.
I know very little about large aircraft design - but quite a bit about light aircraft design.
A 1 inch / 25 mm thick skin suggests the wing is a stressed skin design. What shocks me is how thick it is. Light aircraft stressed skins may have 1-2mm skin. This is an order of magnitude larger despite having a much higher moment of inertia.
I would have guessed that modern large aircraft designs would have relied in strong spar design rather than skin. But I am happy to be disabused.
The wing box upper skin at that point is about one inch thick.
I know very little about large aircraft design - but quite a bit about light aircraft design.
A 1 inch / 25 mm thick skin suggests the wing is a stressed skin design. What shocks me is how thick it is. Light aircraft stressed skins may have 1-2mm skin. This is an order of magnitude larger despite having a much higher moment of inertia.
I would have guessed that modern large aircraft designs would have relied in strong spar design rather than skin. But I am happy to be disabused.
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: London
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Very worrying that a state of the art engine - and a new one at that - could have suffered such a serious uncontained failure.
I wonder if this will be attributed to a fundamental design error - perhaps related in some way to the problems besetting the Trent 1000 programme on the B787?
I am sure the folks in Derby are scrutinising both incidents to identify possible common factors such as material batch and core design features. Best of luck to them.
I wonder if this will be attributed to a fundamental design error - perhaps related in some way to the problems besetting the Trent 1000 programme on the B787?
I am sure the folks in Derby are scrutinising both incidents to identify possible common factors such as material batch and core design features. Best of luck to them.
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: U.K.
Posts: 62
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think this situation will be cleared up fairly quickly. Quantas expect to fly the A380 again soon so they probably already have a good idea what went wrong, suggestive of the known excessive wear issue in the IP shaft rigid coupling. RR will be working hard to get a permanent fix in place and it will be back to business as usual before you can say Airbus.
It will be interesting to see if this turns out to be a relatively high cycle uninspected engine per the recent AD rules.
All the above is of course speculation.
It will be interesting to see if this turns out to be a relatively high cycle uninspected engine per the recent AD rules.
All the above is of course speculation.
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 94
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
choppingmotion - as shown many times above , it can happen to any engine , and the forces involved with this part of the engine are enormous (12,000rpm spinning parts) so any failure of this stage of the engine will result in it being ` uncontained` - that is unless you wish to armour the engine with 1inch thick titanium all over.....
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: 58-33N. 00-18W. Peterborough UK
Posts: 3,040
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
chase888. ....
You did miss something. The explanation that there never was an over-speed. The MEL referred to an unserviceable overspeed detector - which can't be that important as it's in the MEL.
I hope I did not miss anything regarding the reported over-speed warning 2 days prior. I am in power generation, and ... any over-speed indication results in IMMEDIATE shutdown of that machine. ..
If this report of over-speed warnings is true, then the ops manual and MEL need revising.
If this report of over-speed warnings is true, then the ops manual and MEL need revising.
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: New Zealand
Age: 66
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Latso asked
I'm interested in any thoughts on this 
Pete
A quick and off topic question from an SLF if you'll indulge, regarding this plane's ability to stop on the runway
It landed safely, so I have my answer, but the question is....
- Largest passenger jet
- 450+ people on board
- Only 1 of 2 reverse engines working
- 1 other engine not responding, maybe idling but possibly thrusting
- Flaps retracted or not all the way down (as some have speculated)
....Just how hard is it to stop such a large plane with these conditions?
It landed safely, so I have my answer, but the question is....
- Largest passenger jet
- 450+ people on board
- Only 1 of 2 reverse engines working
- 1 other engine not responding, maybe idling but possibly thrusting
- Flaps retracted or not all the way down (as some have speculated)
....Just how hard is it to stop such a large plane with these conditions?
Pete
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Under the Long Grey Cloud
Age: 76
Posts: 97
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Stopping
Not too hard...is the quick answer.
During certification, rejected takeoffs at max AUW are demonstrated from V1.
The aircraft comes to a stop, on the runway, having used more than 50% of the runway to reach V1 before the brakes are applied.
During certification, rejected takeoffs at max AUW are demonstrated from V1.
The aircraft comes to a stop, on the runway, having used more than 50% of the runway to reach V1 before the brakes are applied.
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Bristol
Posts: 184
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
kwateow said :
The wing box upper skin at that point is about one inch thick.
I know very little about large aircraft design - but quite a bit about light aircraft design.
A 1 inch / 25 mm thick skin suggests the wing is a stressed skin design. What shocks me is how thick it is. Light aircraft stressed skins may have 1-2mm skin. This is an order of magnitude larger despite having a much higher moment of inertia.
I would have guessed that modern large aircraft designs would have relied in strong spar design rather than skin. But I am happy to be disabused.
The wing box upper skin at that point is about one inch thick.
I know very little about large aircraft design - but quite a bit about light aircraft design.
A 1 inch / 25 mm thick skin suggests the wing is a stressed skin design. What shocks me is how thick it is. Light aircraft stressed skins may have 1-2mm skin. This is an order of magnitude larger despite having a much higher moment of inertia.
I would have guessed that modern large aircraft designs would have relied in strong spar design rather than skin. But I am happy to be disabused.
I'm interested in any thoughts on this 
Pete
Pete
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: the City by the Bay
Posts: 547
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Qantas says A380 engine failure may be 'design issue' - The China Post
Qantas says A380 engine failure may be 'design issue'
SYDNEY/MELBOURNE -- A faulty part or a design issue may have caused the engine failure on a giant Airbus A380, forcing the Qantas Airways flight to make an emergency landing in Singapore, Qantas chief Alan Joyce said on Friday.
The engine failure on Thursday marked the biggest incident to date for the world's largest passenger plane, which has been in service only since 2007. It forced Qantas to ground its fleet and other airlines to recheck their own A380s.
"We believe this is probably most likely a material failure or some sort of design issue," Joyce told a news conference in Sydney.
Qantas has grounded its fleet of six A380s pending safety checks which will take 24 to 48 hours to complete.
"If we don't find any adverse findings in those checks the aircraft will resume operations," said Joyce.
The Australian Transport Safety Bureau said on Friday there was no indication foul play had contributed to the incident on the Sydney-bound flight.
Singapore Airlines resumed flying its A380s on Friday, lifting a grounding order imposed after the Qantas incident. German airline Lufthansa said it would conduct checks without interrupting flights.
Singapore's clearance of its 11 A380s -- the second largest fleet in the world after Emirates -- will be a relief for Airbus and engine maker Rolls-Royce, which lost over $1.5 billion in combined market value on Thursday. EADS shares fell 4 percent, while Rolls-Royce shares shed 5 percent.
British A380 engine maker Rolls-Royce issued a statement urging operators of the aircraft to perform safety checks on its Trent 900 engines.
One passenger aboard flight QF32 reported hearing a "massive bang" while photographs of the engine showed its outer, rear casing had been torn apart.
"The fact that it survived the damage is a credit to the design. Twenty years ago that would probably have taken the aircraft out of the sky," said John Page, senior lecturer in Aerospace Engineering at the University of New South Wales.
Passengers also reported that a second engine on the stricken Qantas aircraft failed to shut down once on the tarmac, sparking fears it could ignite spilling fuel from the failed engine.
Second Engine Problem
Qantas chief Joyce confirmed the other engine had failed to shut down after landing but said it could have been affected in some way by the first engine mishap, which caused parts to fly off. "We are still investigating the causes of that," he said.
Passengers said after landing they had been warned of the dangers of using any electronic device, as fire fighters sprayed the aircraft which was leaking fuel from a hole in the wing.
"Obviously in the back of your mind you're concerned about a very hot engine next to leaking fuel," passenger Christopher Lee said. "Obviously you're in a state of anxiety."
Qantas said its engineers, along with those from Airbus and Rolls-Royce, were working non-stop to determine what went wrong.
"Rolls-Royce have identified a number of potential areas," said Joyce. "This issue does not relate to maintenance."
Rolls-Royce had maintained the engines since they were installed on the aircraft, he added.
Shares Softer
Qantas's shares ended down 1 percent at A$2.86, underperforming the broader market which advanced 1.2 percent to a six-month high.
Commonwealth Bank aviation analyst Matt Crowe said there was unlikely to be any longer-term reputational damage, as investors had tended to "move on" from previous safety incidents, which have never resulted in a fatal crash for Qantas.
Qantas's Joyce said it was too early to assess the financial impact of grounding its six A380s, but Commonwealth's Crowe estimated the grounding could cost up to A$20 million (US$20.3 million) in revenues if the planes remained on the ground for a week.
By comparison, the volcanic ash cloud that disrupted European air travel in April this year lasted about two weeks and cost Qantas A$46 million in costs and lost revenue
Qantas says A380 engine failure may be 'design issue'
SYDNEY/MELBOURNE -- A faulty part or a design issue may have caused the engine failure on a giant Airbus A380, forcing the Qantas Airways flight to make an emergency landing in Singapore, Qantas chief Alan Joyce said on Friday.
The engine failure on Thursday marked the biggest incident to date for the world's largest passenger plane, which has been in service only since 2007. It forced Qantas to ground its fleet and other airlines to recheck their own A380s.
"We believe this is probably most likely a material failure or some sort of design issue," Joyce told a news conference in Sydney.
Qantas has grounded its fleet of six A380s pending safety checks which will take 24 to 48 hours to complete.
"If we don't find any adverse findings in those checks the aircraft will resume operations," said Joyce.
The Australian Transport Safety Bureau said on Friday there was no indication foul play had contributed to the incident on the Sydney-bound flight.
Singapore Airlines resumed flying its A380s on Friday, lifting a grounding order imposed after the Qantas incident. German airline Lufthansa said it would conduct checks without interrupting flights.
Singapore's clearance of its 11 A380s -- the second largest fleet in the world after Emirates -- will be a relief for Airbus and engine maker Rolls-Royce, which lost over $1.5 billion in combined market value on Thursday. EADS shares fell 4 percent, while Rolls-Royce shares shed 5 percent.
British A380 engine maker Rolls-Royce issued a statement urging operators of the aircraft to perform safety checks on its Trent 900 engines.
One passenger aboard flight QF32 reported hearing a "massive bang" while photographs of the engine showed its outer, rear casing had been torn apart.
"The fact that it survived the damage is a credit to the design. Twenty years ago that would probably have taken the aircraft out of the sky," said John Page, senior lecturer in Aerospace Engineering at the University of New South Wales.
Passengers also reported that a second engine on the stricken Qantas aircraft failed to shut down once on the tarmac, sparking fears it could ignite spilling fuel from the failed engine.
Second Engine Problem
Qantas chief Joyce confirmed the other engine had failed to shut down after landing but said it could have been affected in some way by the first engine mishap, which caused parts to fly off. "We are still investigating the causes of that," he said.
Passengers said after landing they had been warned of the dangers of using any electronic device, as fire fighters sprayed the aircraft which was leaking fuel from a hole in the wing.
"Obviously in the back of your mind you're concerned about a very hot engine next to leaking fuel," passenger Christopher Lee said. "Obviously you're in a state of anxiety."
Qantas said its engineers, along with those from Airbus and Rolls-Royce, were working non-stop to determine what went wrong.
"Rolls-Royce have identified a number of potential areas," said Joyce. "This issue does not relate to maintenance."
Rolls-Royce had maintained the engines since they were installed on the aircraft, he added.
Shares Softer
Qantas's shares ended down 1 percent at A$2.86, underperforming the broader market which advanced 1.2 percent to a six-month high.
Commonwealth Bank aviation analyst Matt Crowe said there was unlikely to be any longer-term reputational damage, as investors had tended to "move on" from previous safety incidents, which have never resulted in a fatal crash for Qantas.
Qantas's Joyce said it was too early to assess the financial impact of grounding its six A380s, but Commonwealth's Crowe estimated the grounding could cost up to A$20 million (US$20.3 million) in revenues if the planes remained on the ground for a week.
By comparison, the volcanic ash cloud that disrupted European air travel in April this year lasted about two weeks and cost Qantas A$46 million in costs and lost revenue
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: London Under EGLL(LHR) 27R ILS
Age: 31
Posts: 500
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
that is unless you wish to armour the engine with 1inch thick titanium all over.....
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Retford, UK
Posts: 476
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Light aircraft are designed the way they are as much for easy of manufacture as for strength whereas the A380 is much more carefully designed. It's worth remembering that those skins are machined from a solid block of metal.
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: cambridge
Age: 58
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Really, that's amazing, why machined, isn't the skin formed from sheet into the correct curvature?
YouTube - Airbus A380 - Wing Construction - HD
--
Dan