Qantas A380 uncontained #2 engine failure
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Debris Recovered in Batam & Investigation
It sounds as if the majority, if not all of the debris from the engine landed on the island of Batam. Not only that, it landed in a populated area (presumably the township of Batam) and seems to have been recovered by the locals even before the plane landed only 20km away in another country. Given the debirs landed in a populated area, it seems lucky that no one was killed/injured/hit by it.
My question, though, is how much easier will this make the solving of this accident/incident, when the investigating team will have virtually all of the debris from the engine?
Given that the majorty of the first half of the Singapore to Sydney leg would be over the sea (and therefore I presume the chances of recovering such a small amount of debris would be slim), it seems a fluke that this debris landed on land and was so easily recovered, without having injured anyone on the ground.
My question, though, is how much easier will this make the solving of this accident/incident, when the investigating team will have virtually all of the debris from the engine?
Given that the majorty of the first half of the Singapore to Sydney leg would be over the sea (and therefore I presume the chances of recovering such a small amount of debris would be slim), it seems a fluke that this debris landed on land and was so easily recovered, without having injured anyone on the ground.
The following random thoughts occur to me:
1. Any event in which metal shrapnel penetrates parts of the airframe other than the engine cowling is "uncontained" - any definition that implies otherwise is simply an inadequate definition.
2. In the "Miracle on the Hudson" two substantially smaller engines managed to swallow one (or more) very large birds each without exploding. Therefore I have my doubts that this was an "innocent" engine set upon by immediate outside forces.
3. An evacuation by slide can be compared to a fighter-plane ejection. A relatively violent and dangerous way to exit an aircraft unless the only alternative is immediate risk of death. Especially when some of the exits are 30 feet (10 meters) from the ground. In this case, the slower disembarkation was (IMHO) the right call.
4. Most of the stuff that fell off the plane (excepting the steel rotor disk) was relatively lightweight honeycomb aluminum, or fiber-based composites, which will tend to flutter down, rather than fall like a rock. No, I would still not want to be hit by one - but let's keep perspective.
5. It may surprise some on this forum - but most of the world does not have advanced degrees in materials engineering. So they (witnesses, journalists, local authorities) see a piece of unfamiliar - stuff - and describe it as best they can. I'm sure the folks on Batam can identify individually 37 different types of sea life by name from the local bays - which to a western pilot or engineer would be nothing but "fish."
6. Any aircraft from an ultralight to the Space Shuttle will eventually have its first accident, and its first fatal accident, if it is in service long enough. Fortunately for the A380 this was the one but not the other. Seems to have been handled well from the cockpit.
1. Any event in which metal shrapnel penetrates parts of the airframe other than the engine cowling is "uncontained" - any definition that implies otherwise is simply an inadequate definition.
2. In the "Miracle on the Hudson" two substantially smaller engines managed to swallow one (or more) very large birds each without exploding. Therefore I have my doubts that this was an "innocent" engine set upon by immediate outside forces.
3. An evacuation by slide can be compared to a fighter-plane ejection. A relatively violent and dangerous way to exit an aircraft unless the only alternative is immediate risk of death. Especially when some of the exits are 30 feet (10 meters) from the ground. In this case, the slower disembarkation was (IMHO) the right call.
4. Most of the stuff that fell off the plane (excepting the steel rotor disk) was relatively lightweight honeycomb aluminum, or fiber-based composites, which will tend to flutter down, rather than fall like a rock. No, I would still not want to be hit by one - but let's keep perspective.
5. It may surprise some on this forum - but most of the world does not have advanced degrees in materials engineering. So they (witnesses, journalists, local authorities) see a piece of unfamiliar - stuff - and describe it as best they can. I'm sure the folks on Batam can identify individually 37 different types of sea life by name from the local bays - which to a western pilot or engineer would be nothing but "fish."
6. Any aircraft from an ultralight to the Space Shuttle will eventually have its first accident, and its first fatal accident, if it is in service long enough. Fortunately for the A380 this was the one but not the other. Seems to have been handled well from the cockpit.
Last edited by pattern_is_full; 5th Nov 2010 at 04:57.
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I'm wondering how easy it might be to effect a repair on the upper wing skin. The A380 uses a 111ft long, 4000kg single upper wing skin, the biggest ever. It'll be interesting to see what solutions the engineers at Filton have for this one.
This is a bad day for the A380. There have been many. They (Airbus) were warned.
-drl
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ATSB Press Release - ATSB leads international investigation into Qantas Airbus A380..
An ATSB (Australian Transport Safety Bureau) press release is available at Media Releases: 05 November 2010 - ATSB leads international investigation into Qantas Airbus A380 engine failure . Of course there is very little information at this point. Investigation page is at Investigation: AO-2010-089 - Qantas Airbus A380 - Inflight engine failure, Indonesia
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Qantas are one of the few airlines that has a "precautionary disembarkation" as a procedure they can use in this sort of occurence.
It can be quickly upgraded to a full evacuation if necessary, and as stated, seems to have been the right call here.
It can be quickly upgraded to a full evacuation if necessary, and as stated, seems to have been the right call here.
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A quick and off topic question from an SLF if you'll indulge, regarding this plane's ability to stop on the runway
It landed safely, so I have my answer, but the question is....
- Largest passenger jet
- 450+ people on board
- Only 1 of 2 reverse engines working
- 1 other engine not responding, maybe idling but possibly thrusting
- Flaps retracted or not all the way down (as some have speculated)
....Just how hard is it to stop such a large plane with these conditions?
It landed safely, so I have my answer, but the question is....
- Largest passenger jet
- 450+ people on board
- Only 1 of 2 reverse engines working
- 1 other engine not responding, maybe idling but possibly thrusting
- Flaps retracted or not all the way down (as some have speculated)
....Just how hard is it to stop such a large plane with these conditions?
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Qantas just announced that they suspect a material failure or design error.
A disc failure is almost unheard of and very serious.
The RR powered versions will be grounded for weeks !!!
A disc failure is almost unheard of and very serious.
The RR powered versions will be grounded for weeks !!!
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Very much doubt its a disc failure, far more likely a related spline or bearing problem which caused the disc to exit. Ive seen the paper from RR advising of this potential problem. The whole disc cannot possibly exit without a shaft related problem..
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Repairs
Long time member, long time no see friends. Kind of been busy.
A question: deSitter, good point, and I didn't get who you quoted. How would the engineers effect a repair/replacement of the left wing (assuming damage is limited to this part of the equipment) at WSSS? Bonding of the upper surface, spar replacements, hyd lines, databusses, etc.
If anybody is in the insurance and or engineering areas, some suggestions would be welcome by all, I imagine.
Again, from one old guy to three other commands, and to the cabin crew, and WSSS emergency services, not to mention ATC, a job well done.
A question: deSitter, good point, and I didn't get who you quoted. How would the engineers effect a repair/replacement of the left wing (assuming damage is limited to this part of the equipment) at WSSS? Bonding of the upper surface, spar replacements, hyd lines, databusses, etc.
If anybody is in the insurance and or engineering areas, some suggestions would be welcome by all, I imagine.
Again, from one old guy to three other commands, and to the cabin crew, and WSSS emergency services, not to mention ATC, a job well done.
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Reverse ?
A couple of pointers from Mr. Gallois, EADS CEO, being interviewed on French radio this morning.
Mr. Gallois confirmed Qantas info that the plane blew two or three tires on landing due to its heavy weight configuration.
Mr. Gallois also indicated that the engine's reverse mecanism was totally ripped away and he seemed puzzled by that...
Mr. Gallois confirmed Qantas info that the plane blew two or three tires on landing due to its heavy weight configuration.
Mr. Gallois also indicated that the engine's reverse mecanism was totally ripped away and he seemed puzzled by that...
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Qantas is saying it expects to resume A380 flights in 24 to 48 hours, following inspection.
Does that mean it knows what its looking for, and that it knows it's not a design problem?
R
(as for fixing the hole in the wing: bit of speedtape, bosh bosh, job done)
Does that mean it knows what its looking for, and that it knows it's not a design problem?
R
(as for fixing the hole in the wing: bit of speedtape, bosh bosh, job done)
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QUOTE: ''Very much doubt its a disc failure, far more likely a related spline or bearing problem which caused the disc to exit. Ive seen the paper from RR advising of this potential problem. The whole disc cannot possibly exit without a shaft related problem..''
Whirlybird1, your assumption is more or less correct and maybe one needs to ask the question as to what caused this possible combined shaft/bearing failure, internal oil firing maybe? certainly not defective materials. The similarities between this and a recent T1000 failure are worryingly familiar, more I can't say.
Whirlybird1, your assumption is more or less correct and maybe one needs to ask the question as to what caused this possible combined shaft/bearing failure, internal oil firing maybe? certainly not defective materials. The similarities between this and a recent T1000 failure are worryingly familiar, more I can't say.
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There is a lot of talk on this thread about which airlines have the Trent 900 fitted.
I recall that R/R had a major blow up of a test engine for the Boeing 787 recently.
Is the 787 using Trents? because if it is this could lead to a problem for an ETOPs a/c
I recall that R/R had a major blow up of a test engine for the Boeing 787 recently.
Is the 787 using Trents? because if it is this could lead to a problem for an ETOPs a/c
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Qantas just announced that they suspect a material failure or design error.............
I know most posts have been about Airbus and RR and a design / procedure issue, but I'd like more info on what alloy they're using and who is making it.
As others have said other engine manufacturers have had similar issues and I'm not so quick to fault the design.
(mini edit: I just noticed this is my first post... So for those questioning, I'm not a reporter. Just an aviation guy who's been a member for six years and apparently has had nothing to say....)