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Qantas A380 uncontained #2 engine failure

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Qantas A380 uncontained #2 engine failure

Old 4th Nov 2010, 13:44
  #141 (permalink)  
 
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In terms of the FADEC, there are usually 3 methods of shutting down the engine. Independant Overspeed Protection (IOP), Pilot Initiated Emergency Shut Down and Normal Shutdown. IOP and Normal Shut down are affected through the same torque motor coil, Pilot Shut Down has it's own torque motor. So there are 2 electromechanical devices that have 3 potential shut down commands. Of course, how those commands are routed through the airframe is another story (obviously).

The IOP and Normal shut down are routed to the FMU via the EEC, the Pilot Emergency Shut Down is routed directly from the cockpit to the Fuel Metering Unit.

The Fuel Metering Valve Will remain oblivious if it's command structure (outside the realms of the EEC) is compromised.

Of course there's always the fire handle which I believe cuts the fuel flow at the engine / pylon interface.

Last edited by Dak Man; 4th Nov 2010 at 14:24.
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Old 4th Nov 2010, 13:48
  #142 (permalink)  
 
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The more I have seen about this today, the more I feel this could be a VERY expensive and commercially disastrous incident for the A380/RR Trent combination.

I sincerely hope I am wrong.....
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Old 4th Nov 2010, 13:49
  #143 (permalink)  
 
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Just want to say thanks to all of you for a most informative thread. As a frequent (international) flyer and a private pilot (can you say PA 128), the insights and information you all have amaze me, and I am appreciative.

I can guarantee that over the next beer, my friends shall be astounded as we talk about this incident.

Cheers.
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Old 4th Nov 2010, 13:49
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Old Fat One and Patrick are right if I recall the control system correctly, the FADEC will freeze the FMV at last good value until the system recovers or the fuel runs out.

ETIHAD had a similar probem in theToulouse incident some years back when their A340-600 ran away during testing. One engine ran on for several hours.

VnV
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Old 4th Nov 2010, 13:50
  #145 (permalink)  
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Agreed, the Press have really kicked over several buckets of smelly stuff this morning, starting from a mid air explosion to a crash, one major agency had even found the wreckage before the plane landed!! Heavens, some of these guys really need to get their act together. Hope those with the quick typing fingers get a nice interview with their editor in chief and one of those "tea, no bisquits" treatments.
Unfortunately not. Finding the wreckage will be considered a 'High Five' and even a Beer. This is how 'reporting' is these days. With the footage from the mobile phone relayed around the world as soon as the pax were in the terminal? With everyone blogging and phoning the meedja? Not nice but that is how it is going to be for a long time. No carrier is safe from this behaviour and PR departments have to play catch-up but NOT in the old fashion way of pretending that all was just fine.
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Old 4th Nov 2010, 13:55
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Singapore Airlines have now grounded their A380's pending 'investigations'.
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Old 4th Nov 2010, 13:58
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An interesting TV programme in the UK earlier this year concentrated on testing the 'containment' ability of the Trent 900 engine in the event of a major malfunction.......it seemed pretty convincing......at the time???
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Old 4th Nov 2010, 14:00
  #148 (permalink)  
 
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Helen,

That was a fan blade off event, not a turbine rotor burst. Much lower speeds and hence inertia, so "easier" to contain.
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Old 4th Nov 2010, 14:02
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How many A380s are currently operating with these engines?
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Old 4th Nov 2010, 14:07
  #150 (permalink)  
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Regarding the idea of using a parallel RF based control mechanism, I would be a bit wary of that. If it were done it would need to be well protected against outside interference, either deliberate or unintentional. It would need encryption to protect against someone trying to gain control, and there would probably need to be individual keys for each aircraft to avoid the possibility of replay attacks using captured signals off air. Not trivial by any means.

If the engine wouldn't shut down even with the fire handle pulled then maybe the additional method needed is a way to close the spar valve manually, probably with a long pole to open a panel in the wing underside and then pull an appropriately shaped handle inside.

Naturally you would need to be able to reach it from outside the danger area of a large engine running at a high power setting, that might be quite a tricky thing to arrange
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Old 4th Nov 2010, 14:13
  #151 (permalink)  
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Whilst to many (including myself as pax) that grounding the fleet - and operators such as Singapore following suit - it is the only valid PR response in this day and age.

We know the statistics but pax do not. Grounding will cost a fortune but better than having pax refuse to board or crossing to other carriers to avoid you.
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Old 4th Nov 2010, 14:14
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I just can't believe that they could not shut the engine down in Toulouse (RE: ETIHAD A340-600 crash into wall) just plain scary. Engine #4 ran from 16:00 to 18:48 (almost 3 hours !!!) and was shut down by spraying foam and water into it.below is a passage from the BEA report:

"Engine #1 and #2 hit the wall and were severely damaged. The #2 pylon was twisted. Engine #3 and #4 kept running after impact and did not stop immediately. It was not possible to shut them down, neither by activating the fire extinguisher handles nor by positioning the thrust levers on OFF. Water and foam spray on engine #4 managed to extinguish it at 18:48."
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Old 4th Nov 2010, 14:17
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To put it mildly - congrats to the pilots....

This is a shorter version of the in-flight clip posted earlier, with just the pilot announcements.

Video: Qantas A380 engine failure filmed by passenger | Business | guardian.co.uk

Darragh
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Old 4th Nov 2010, 14:17
  #154 (permalink)  
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and your point is? The connections between what was left of the cockpit in that "ground crash" (did you see the pictures?) and the engines may have become severed.
 
Old 4th Nov 2010, 14:23
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The very important point is: 3 hours to shut down an engine??!! at the place of manufacture ? I'm not an aircraft designer but if I was I'll make sure to incorporate some way to shut down the engines from some other location. Shut off valves or other means accessible to rescue personnel, it only makes sense IMHO...
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Old 4th Nov 2010, 14:24
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Come on everyone, have you forgotten already? . . . . . . the simplest way to shut an engine down is to throw a thimblefull of volcanic ash at the intake

I'll get my coat.....
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Old 4th Nov 2010, 14:25
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There was a time when Qantas Engineering, together with its Apprenticeship programme, was acknowledged to be the best in the world. When they became available, second-hand Qantas aircraft commanded the highest prices on the international market. The recent spate of incidents, unprecedented for Qantas, seems to have occurred since the beancounters got involved and started 'outsourcing' too much of the engineering to cheaper, overseas competitors.

Coincidence? I think not.
The increase in incidents such as these has co-incided with the change in culture. The change in culture has co-incided with an increase in the number managers,many of these are outsiders joining with little to no avaiation experience.

It's sickening.

Gone are the days when those pulling the strings started out as the mail room boy or apprentice engineer. Decicions are driven by greed and not what's best for the airline.

When I joined 18 years ago as an apprentice, I was proud to work for the company. People respected the company.

These days, people just say "Oh? They have been having a bad run recently... and I wouldn't fly with them".

I am sick of having to explain to people about the failures on behalf of those who are paid far more than I am and who are ultimately responsible.

The good name has been destroyed in the name of bonuses, egos and those wanting to make their mark for the sake of it. They are like seagulls. They arrive from out of nowhere in a fluster, sqwaking, sticking their beaks in.... crap all over everything and then fly off leaving a mess.
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Old 4th Nov 2010, 14:27
  #158 (permalink)  
 
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I'm not an aircraft designer but if I was I'll make sure to incorporate some way to shut down the engines from some other location. Shut off valves or other means accessible to rescue personnel, it only makes sense IMHO...
That would an extra thing that could go wrong.
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Old 4th Nov 2010, 14:30
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If Qantas are outsourcing to Lufthansa to save money then Christ, your costs in Oz must be extortionate!
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Old 4th Nov 2010, 14:30
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On checking the checker's check

Pardon my twisted sense of wry humour, but the load of four bar-ers on board looks suspicious like a Check Capt (CC) being checked to check an ab-initio-to-type capt to-line by a *really senior CC.

If so, so fraught with command-line responsibilities and pre-incident stressors.

No wonder no-one was smiling as they got off

(An old skipper mate - DC3 believe it or not - in similat situation long ago could top this story, because behind *his* really senior CC was a junior DCA (ancient Oz avio buraucracy) CC being checked to give very senior CC clearance etc., etc., by a DCA *very *very senior etc etc.

Sweating hard, skipper mate looked back once, down that narrow cockpit entry aisle, to see a layer of faces looking over other's shoulders. He saw the funny side and slid quietly to the left & flew the A/c, and 'let them play their games.')

I hope this damned hard working crew will be able to see the funny side one day.

Probably not right now, I'd guess. But I'll bet they needed a beer or three.

It was actually pleasant to see the CEO take the media barrage front on, and not delegate it.
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