Air India Near Death Incident
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
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We need to focus the complaint at the root cause. It is not THAT difficult to fly a low level off after take-off - more difficult than just plugging in the A/P at 400' and unfolding the 'Delhi Times', yes, but not THAT hard! Indeed, a way of life at Nice and sometimes Tel Aviv.
It is the way the crew appeared to have mis-handled the event that should be our concern. It is probably always going to happen at sometime in every pilot's life. Of course it is not ideal, but let's not blame ATC, eh?
It is the way the crew appeared to have mis-handled the event that should be our concern. It is probably always going to happen at sometime in every pilot's life. Of course it is not ideal, but let's not blame ATC, eh?
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I have done many departures from Delhi. From RWY 29 the ATC normally does not give a SID. The normal clearance is always to climb to 2600 feet on QNH. Never , ever have I been given or heard from others any clearance lower than 2600( The MSA at VIDP).
I doubt the accuracy of the above story.
I doubt the accuracy of the above story.
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1700`
I can only confirm that since we started ops on 29/11, the standard departure clearance has been "RWY heading to 1700`, turn left (right) to heading ... and climb to 2600`, further by radar." Despite being totally unimpressed by Indian ATC I have never heard of such a low level off. Could AI have misread the clearance (it comes late, of course).
"All aircraft: Maintain your current altitude and hold at present position"- Yes. "Increase your rate of descent (while below the G/S)" - Yes, but not "Climb and maintain 1700`in the turn", so something does not hold water....
As for the reporting system here: Veery goood on paper, for IOSA audits, for obtaining route permissions, not so good for "learning by (otherīs) mistakes". My first (and only) report directly to DGCA - when I was very new to India - taught me it was the no-no way to do things in India. You report stuff to your closest superior, who will file it in the appropriate manner (vertically), and he will thank you for your contribution to Flight Safety. On a good day he will send out a memo to everybody saying that you will be severy punished if deviating from SOPs
.
FAA was right; it is ultimately the responsibility of DCGA to ensure a safe operation of Indian aircraft. By letting DGCA put wool in their eyes, even FAA guys have failed.
The fact remains that insisting on a First World flight safety standard or training standard would be the same as closing shop tomorrow in Indian civil aviation, and NOBODY -in India or abroad - is interested in that.
So keep your fingers crossed and NEVER lock the door behind you if you are out for a pee (the recent 22.000`plunge of AI may happen again)
.
"All aircraft: Maintain your current altitude and hold at present position"- Yes. "Increase your rate of descent (while below the G/S)" - Yes, but not "Climb and maintain 1700`in the turn", so something does not hold water....
As for the reporting system here: Veery goood on paper, for IOSA audits, for obtaining route permissions, not so good for "learning by (otherīs) mistakes". My first (and only) report directly to DGCA - when I was very new to India - taught me it was the no-no way to do things in India. You report stuff to your closest superior, who will file it in the appropriate manner (vertically), and he will thank you for your contribution to Flight Safety. On a good day he will send out a memo to everybody saying that you will be severy punished if deviating from SOPs
. FAA was right; it is ultimately the responsibility of DCGA to ensure a safe operation of Indian aircraft. By letting DGCA put wool in their eyes, even FAA guys have failed.
The fact remains that insisting on a First World flight safety standard or training standard would be the same as closing shop tomorrow in Indian civil aviation, and NOBODY -in India or abroad - is interested in that.
So keep your fingers crossed and NEVER lock the door behind you if you are out for a pee (the recent 22.000`plunge of AI may happen again)
.
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While none of us can categorically prove that the said clearance was or was not given it cannot be in the realms of "unbelievable" whenever we are discussing "Incredible India"! Pilots yelled at / abused by ATC, ATC being yelled at / abused by pilots are all part of the norm. Cracked me up every time I requested verification of a clearances due the uncomprehensionable RT from ATC......."I am telling you!!!!"
You doubting Thomas' still don't believe us, eh? See below:
ATC asks pilot to 'shut up', triggers mid-air spat
Recently (if my memory is correct) a Capt of an AIE aircraft told BOM SFC to "f$&k off!" when she was given a delayed slot clearance / expected taxi time. (See Sth East Asia forum for where I saw this.....)
Capt Turbo: expecting 1st World standards in aviation of a 3rd World airline entering 1st World airspace is not a desire, it is a necessity.
We keep making excuses for these fools of aviation. The body in charge (DGCA) is known by all to be as corrupt as all hell. Don't tell me the FAA, JAA or ICAO play Sergeant Schultz..."I know nothing! I see nothing! I hear nothing!"
So why did this event (supposedly) occur anyway? A complete lack of [Aircraft] Situational Awareness, flying skills and aircraft knowledge perhaps? Argue what you will about automation, who's manhood is bigger, but the fact remains that this goes on and the body responsible does nothing about it. [For the record, I believe it did happen. You can't have experienced Scair India and not find it all too plausible].
You doubting Thomas' still don't believe us, eh? See below:
ATC asks pilot to 'shut up', triggers mid-air spat
Recently (if my memory is correct) a Capt of an AIE aircraft told BOM SFC to "f$&k off!" when she was given a delayed slot clearance / expected taxi time. (See Sth East Asia forum for where I saw this.....)
Capt Turbo: expecting 1st World standards in aviation of a 3rd World airline entering 1st World airspace is not a desire, it is a necessity.
We keep making excuses for these fools of aviation. The body in charge (DGCA) is known by all to be as corrupt as all hell. Don't tell me the FAA, JAA or ICAO play Sergeant Schultz..."I know nothing! I see nothing! I hear nothing!"
So why did this event (supposedly) occur anyway? A complete lack of [Aircraft] Situational Awareness, flying skills and aircraft knowledge perhaps? Argue what you will about automation, who's manhood is bigger, but the fact remains that this goes on and the body responsible does nothing about it. [For the record, I believe it did happen. You can't have experienced Scair India and not find it all too plausible].
Last edited by TopTup; 12th Oct 2010 at 09:34.
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strella
In what precise way do you "doubt the accuracy of the above story"?
If you are suggesting that the whole thing has been made up by the expat captain involved, what on earth could be his possible motivation?
In what precise way do you "doubt the accuracy of the above story"?
If you are suggesting that the whole thing has been made up by the expat captain involved, what on earth could be his possible motivation?
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Capt Turbo
I think the supposition in your first paragraph is most likely. Similar misunderstandings have happened before.
http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources...GR%2011-07.pdf
http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources...GR%2011-07.pdf
Capt Turbo;
You mention an IOSA Audit. Can you, (or anyone) confirm that AI has passed an IOSA audit and when?
Thanks.
PJ2
Veery goood on paper, for IOSA audits
Thanks.
PJ2
Last edited by PJ2; 12th Oct 2010 at 13:08.
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I have an internal report from Boeing, who flew with Air India to try and help them "'improve'"
I am more than happy to share it, I will just find a way of extracting the data from the report and post it on here.
In short, many safety issues were raised from the Boeing Factory pilots about the way Air India conducts it's operations.
PT6A
I am more than happy to share it, I will just find a way of extracting the data from the report and post it on here.
In short, many safety issues were raised from the Boeing Factory pilots about the way Air India conducts it's operations.
PT6A
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Semantics
Quote from Strella
I have done many departures from Delhi. From RWY 29 the ATC normally does not give a SID. The normal clearance is always to climb to 2600 feet on QNH. Never , ever have I been given or heard from others any clearance lower than 2600( The MSA at VIDP).
I doubt the accuracy of the above story.
Quote from Capt Turbo
I can only confirm that since we started ops on 29/11, the standard departure clearance has been "RWY heading to 1700`, turn left (right) to heading ... and climb to 2600`, further by radar." Despite being totally unimpressed by Indian ATC I have never heard of such a low level off. Could AI have misread the clearance (it comes late, of course).
Strella - so perhaps the initial CLIMB clearance was to 2.600 ft, the 1.700 ft only being the passing through altitude at which to start the turn? Just as reading text can give so many surprisingly different interpretations, so can a piece of verbal instruction, as short as the line from Capt Turbo's post, conjure up different views as to what ATC expects the crew to do.
As to the reported, at 200 ft, engage autopilot, my gosh, don't pilots enjoy flying anymore?
I have done many departures from Delhi. From RWY 29 the ATC normally does not give a SID. The normal clearance is always to climb to 2600 feet on QNH. Never , ever have I been given or heard from others any clearance lower than 2600( The MSA at VIDP).
I doubt the accuracy of the above story.
Quote from Capt Turbo
I can only confirm that since we started ops on 29/11, the standard departure clearance has been "RWY heading to 1700`, turn left (right) to heading ... and climb to 2600`, further by radar." Despite being totally unimpressed by Indian ATC I have never heard of such a low level off. Could AI have misread the clearance (it comes late, of course).
Strella - so perhaps the initial CLIMB clearance was to 2.600 ft, the 1.700 ft only being the passing through altitude at which to start the turn? Just as reading text can give so many surprisingly different interpretations, so can a piece of verbal instruction, as short as the line from Capt Turbo's post, conjure up different views as to what ATC expects the crew to do.
As to the reported, at 200 ft, engage autopilot, my gosh, don't pilots enjoy flying anymore?
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Turns out that the PF (aircraft commander) and First Officer interpreted the ATC Clearance such that they dialled in 1700 feet on the MCP before takeoff. Situation was exacerbated by the Air India SOP that precludes pre-selection of ATC Clearance heading with a requirement to takeoff with runway heading selected.
Satisfactory FAA audit of Air India completed in early 2010.
Satisfactory FAA audit of Air India completed in early 2010.
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Top tub
I somehow have started enjoying your mad ranting about Indian aviation. Your dislike for Air India is all too obvious in your last 100 posts. Take my advice pick up a job, have a drink and move ON in life buddy or you will soon have a heart attack and again you will graciously give the credit to Indian aviation for it
I somehow have started enjoying your mad ranting about Indian aviation. Your dislike for Air India is all too obvious in your last 100 posts. Take my advice pick up a job, have a drink and move ON in life buddy or you will soon have a heart attack and again you will graciously give the credit to Indian aviation for it
jstars2;
Thank you. That led me to do some research on the 'net.
IATA Safety Audit AI, 2006,
FAA Audit June 2009,
FAA Audit 2 September 2009
FAA approves IOSA Audits
I'm trying to square certain comments here with these recent reports. I'm not doubting comments on ATC as I've flown enough in India to have experienced their ATC's anomalies (and on-air arguments, one in which an aircraft argued that it was assigned its altitude first and wouldn't descend to avoid a traffic conflict - that "conflict" was us!). But I can't square characterizations which depict a horrendous safety culture at AI with some of the documents linked to above.
I'm not disputing some of the claims here regarding punishment for reporting a safety issue, absence of safety monitoring programs and the effects of corruption. There are logically only a couple of explanations in the accounting. So far, what I'm reading is an enigma.
PJ2
Satisfactory FAA audit of Air India completed in early 2010.
IATA Safety Audit AI, 2006,
FAA Audit June 2009,
FAA Audit 2 September 2009
FAA approves IOSA Audits
I'm trying to square certain comments here with these recent reports. I'm not doubting comments on ATC as I've flown enough in India to have experienced their ATC's anomalies (and on-air arguments, one in which an aircraft argued that it was assigned its altitude first and wouldn't descend to avoid a traffic conflict - that "conflict" was us!). But I can't square characterizations which depict a horrendous safety culture at AI with some of the documents linked to above.
I'm not disputing some of the claims here regarding punishment for reporting a safety issue, absence of safety monitoring programs and the effects of corruption. There are logically only a couple of explanations in the accounting. So far, what I'm reading is an enigma.
PJ2
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Oh, TopTup, the day you are made redundant because your airline cannot fly Asia (todays bread and butter routes) because the Asians are banned from coming to your home town.....THEN tell me about necessities. The last 30 or so years we have seen airspace being emptied when Pongo Airways arrives because they come from where we all want to go. Check out the Chinese and the RELTA test; did they have to conform?? Will the Great Indian National Flag Carrier be banned from EU/US regardless of their standards? Trop naive, mon ami!
PJ2; Having passed an IOSA audit in India is not the same as conforming,, so question not relevant, and you know it, surely....However, the 2 private international players are doing relatively OK out in the big world (and I didnīt say because of all the expats, KFR has only one left). I have done more take-overs with so called 1. world operators coming to ORD or JFK than with these guys coming to LHR (Hmm, credit to London ATC, maybe
).
PT6A: The Frogs are just as concerned as the Boing Fac pilots, but once the salesmen have sold x billion dollars worth of hardware, you just hang in there and get the best out of it, `cause you cannot reverse the deal. A very competent factory TRE put his foot down while in India and he is now enjoying his grandchildren full time.
Sorry for the slight stray...Why do various AI crews mess up? Anything Gustav Baldauf can do about it??
T
PJ2; Having passed an IOSA audit in India is not the same as conforming,, so question not relevant, and you know it, surely....However, the 2 private international players are doing relatively OK out in the big world (and I didnīt say because of all the expats, KFR has only one left). I have done more take-overs with so called 1. world operators coming to ORD or JFK than with these guys coming to LHR (Hmm, credit to London ATC, maybe
).PT6A: The Frogs are just as concerned as the Boing Fac pilots, but once the salesmen have sold x billion dollars worth of hardware, you just hang in there and get the best out of it, `cause you cannot reverse the deal. A very competent factory TRE put his foot down while in India and he is now enjoying his grandchildren full time.
Sorry for the slight stray...Why do various AI crews mess up? Anything Gustav Baldauf can do about it??
T
Originally Posted by Capt Turbo
However, the 2 private international players are doing relatively OK out in the big world
so question not relevant, and you know it, surely
A very competent factory TRE put his foot down...
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Casper...Glad to be of entertainment to you! And granted that you are right in many aspects of "get over it" I suppose. But I will also admit to my fury and disgrace at the Mangalore accident. All the Swiss cheese slices were lined and some have the audacity to say "Who saw this coming?". And the first comment from the airline? "Blame the expat!" If the airline, the regulator and other world governing bodies did their jobs would lives have been lost? Moot point to some.....but I believe no. So yes, I do post often on this (AI) topic in an attempt to open peoples' eyes to what really goes on at that disgrace of an airline.
"Mad ranting"? Enjoy your next AI / AIE experience then and ignore me. What would I know? I only hope you are as lucky as you need to be.
Capt Turbo: what a stupid, stupid, dumb and irresponsible reply. So it is OK to have 175 hr pilots in the RHS of 777's who cannot hand fly an aircraft let alone appreciate V1 as he/she was never taught or the professionalism to self study, arrogant and rude Capts unable to interpret aircraft systems or raw data displays for basic situational awareness? In your eyes, those standards are OK because world trade and the lowest common denominator permits it? You claim to be an Airbus TRI / TRE. So you deem this standard as acceptable because it is the norm in such carriers as AI? I resigned (not redundant) as my conscience dictated, based on these standards. Do you (by some admission) cower down to them? No, airlines like AI and other such carriers are not banned. That is the problem and the disgrace. You however seem to think this is OK. You want to play politics with safety, standards and therefore people's lives.
Naive? Nah. Scared and horrified at the acceptance, or denial of what goes on? Definitely.
"Mad ranting"? Enjoy your next AI / AIE experience then and ignore me. What would I know? I only hope you are as lucky as you need to be.
Capt Turbo: what a stupid, stupid, dumb and irresponsible reply. So it is OK to have 175 hr pilots in the RHS of 777's who cannot hand fly an aircraft let alone appreciate V1 as he/she was never taught or the professionalism to self study, arrogant and rude Capts unable to interpret aircraft systems or raw data displays for basic situational awareness? In your eyes, those standards are OK because world trade and the lowest common denominator permits it? You claim to be an Airbus TRI / TRE. So you deem this standard as acceptable because it is the norm in such carriers as AI? I resigned (not redundant) as my conscience dictated, based on these standards. Do you (by some admission) cower down to them? No, airlines like AI and other such carriers are not banned. That is the problem and the disgrace. You however seem to think this is OK. You want to play politics with safety, standards and therefore people's lives.
Naive? Nah. Scared and horrified at the acceptance, or denial of what goes on? Definitely.
To the Hand-Fly vs Automation brigade...
It's all well and good standing up there on your high horse demanding pilots grow balls and hand-fly the plane!
The reality is, and has been said before, a vast majority of airlines insist on the use of automation as much as possible. It is written onto the manuals, and hence becomes company law.
If you decide one day to have a bit of a fly, and bust an altitude, or a limit etc., you have no come back!
With your position or career on the line, why would you risk it!
If you want to have a fly, much more fun in a lightie!
It's all well and good standing up there on your high horse demanding pilots grow balls and hand-fly the plane!
The reality is, and has been said before, a vast majority of airlines insist on the use of automation as much as possible. It is written onto the manuals, and hence becomes company law.
If you decide one day to have a bit of a fly, and bust an altitude, or a limit etc., you have no come back!
With your position or career on the line, why would you risk it!
If you want to have a fly, much more fun in a lightie!
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Wow, super expat P2!
Wow, double wow, quadruple wow! Only a super expat P2 saved the day, I am truly impressed!!! Makes a good hollywood story in the mould of Rambo but I don't think the bollywood people would want to make a film out of it.