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Air India Near Death Incident

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Air India Near Death Incident

Old 20th Oct 2010, 08:18
  #121 (permalink)  
 
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TopTup, it appears that uou have an axe to grind with Air India. Because, most of what you've written seem to be completely out of whack. by not an order of 5-10% but more like a couple of 1000%. I seriously hope you don't use the same margin of error when you're flying.

I would have loved to reply to each of your points, however, it appears you've made up your mind and are really not willing to listen to any other point of view than your own.

I'm sure by now jstars would have confirmed with him friend about the action taken on this incident and the ops has come out professionally on this one.

I'm sure AI has loads of room for improvement, but its not as bad as you make it sound either.

Regards...
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Old 20th Oct 2010, 11:35
  #122 (permalink)  
 
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You're welcome to your opinion. So I invite you to discredit each and every one of them. Please PM me as such.
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Old 21st Oct 2010, 18:00
  #123 (permalink)  
 
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I would 1000% agree with TopTup on EVERY SINGLE point that he has raised. Have been there and done that. And ANYBODY who disagrees hasn't two cents worth of reliable info at hand and/or is part of the same Air India unscrouplous,corrupt and mismanaged 'managment' of babus and corrupt peons...
For once....lets agree to agree and not otherwise. Else we've got another smoking hole in the ground just waiting to happen. And this time we'll have no one else to blame ..
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Old 22nd Oct 2010, 02:18
  #124 (permalink)  
 
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Boeing 7xx, and others with their heads in the sand, what does egg on your face feel like? I offered you to PM me to deny each & every allegation. You haven't. If your are honest, you can't. Or, start a new thread to open your debate to the wider public. That is, support your comments please. In the mean time, read the latest on your Great Air India!!!

Sr AI official in the dock for safety violations
Manju V, TNN, Oct 21, 2010, 12.08am IST

MUMBAI: Forcing unwell pilots to operate flights, rostering a familial crew for a flight in violation of international anti-hijacking norms, coercing pilots to fly international without a valid passport; these, if the airline's pilots are to be believed, are some of the air safety and security violations occurring with impunity in Air India in the last three months.

These glaring violations were brought up in a letter by Indian Pilots' Guild (IPG), the recognized union of about 350 Air India pilots. The October 13 letter titled, "Misuse of official powers and unlawful acts committed by Capt Rohit Bhasin, additional general manager-operations (scheduling in charge)," was sent to a host of top officials including Air India chairman and managing director, Arvind Jadhav, the directorate-general of civil aviation, the regional labour commissioner and the chief vigilance officer.

"When pilots express their inability to operate flights due to illness, Capt Bhasin issues verbal threats warning pilots of a number of consequences they may have to face if they avail of sick leave,'' says IPG president Jeetendra Awhad in the letter. Flying when unwell is an air safety violation under clause 42-4, part 5 of Indian Aircraft Rules. There have been individual complaints as well against Bhasin who took charge of scheduling about three months ago. Last week, a commander filed a non-cognizable complaint (NC) at Vakola police station. "The complainant was threatened with dire consequences by Bhasin over a petty matter and so he filed an NC,'' said Anil Kharade, senior police inspector.

Despite complaints from several pilots as well as substantial, in-your-face proof, Air India came out in support of Bhasin and issued a blanket denial of all the allegations. "Captain Bhasin has not intimated any pilot who has reported sick. In Air India, all rules and regulations are followed and no pilot has been penalized for availing of sick leave. The airline does not force any medically unfit pilot to fly,'' the airline spokesperson said in reply to a TOI questionnaire. Countered an airline source: "The complaint letter against Bhasin was sent only last week. The airline, without bothering to investigate these serious charges, has denied everything."

Another allegation was made that Capt Bhasin has been rostering himself with his son on flights frequently. Capt M Ranganathan, an air-safety expert said that the practice violates International Civil Aviation Organisation's Document 8973 and 9811, which lists the post 9/11 mandatory security proce dures. "The cockpit door has to be in "Locked-down" condition and under no circumstance; it is to be opened in flight when there is a threat. But when relatives fly as crew, the cockpit door becomes a weak link in the security chain,'' says Capt Ranganathan. "If a pilot leaves the cockpit, the hijacker can emotionally blackmail the one sitting inside to unlock the cockpit door. He can then be commandeered for a 9/11 type of act,'' he said, explaining why the ICAO document prohibits close relatives from being rostered together. Air India denied that Bhasin and his son had been flying together, saying the last instance was in December 2009. "The airline is lying. If they check the scheduling roster, they will see that Bhasin and his son operated many Delhi-New York- Delhi non-stop flights recently. For instance, on July 8, July 10, August 7, August 9,'' said a pilot.

Also, pilots whose passports have been sent for obtaining a visa, are often rostered to fly international in clear violation of Passports Act 1967, said the letter. Air India denied this. "Whistle-blowing is not something that pilots generally do as it could have grave consequences. But when our safety is at stake, we are left with no choice,'' said a source.

Read more: Sr AI official in the dock for safety violations - The Times of India Sr AI official in the dock for safety violations - The Times of India


King on a Wing....Careful showing the Emperor in his New Clothes a mirror! Thanks for your support and honesty.
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Old 25th Oct 2010, 12:32
  #125 (permalink)  
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Boeing7xx

Re: your post #122 of 20 Oct 2010 addressed to TopTup, you wrote:

I'm sure by now jstars would have confirmed with him (sic) friend about the action taken on this incident and the (Air India) ops has come out professionally on this one.
I’ve just received further information from India and I’ve answered your recent PM along the following (de-identified) lines:

Not sure that de-rostering the aircraft Commander since the P2 recently passed confidential information to Air India management constitutes proper handling of the event. Where does Air India go from here in taking remedial action? Why did the Commander cover up the incident by not submitting an Incident Report within a reasonable time? Why did the Commander not mention the flap overspeed on stall recovery, the result of which may be a future malfunction that a colleague will have to deal with? As Air India now knows about it, why has the incident not been officially publicised so that all may learn from it and why has no contact with DEL ATC been instigated so as to discuss possible improvements to SID profiles/clearances at that airport?
I’m sure that you will now equally be able to confirm that my PM decidedly does not agree that “the action taken on this incident and the ops has come out professionally on this one”.

I note that one of the leading lights of Air India “ops” has featured in the Thursday, October 21, 2010 issue of Aviation India. Would Captain Bhasin be one of those making decisions on the handling of the recent incident?

Mumbai: Forcing unwell pilots to operate flights, rostering a familial crew for a flight in violation of international anti-hijacking norms, coercing pilots to fly international without a valid passport; these, if the airline's pilots are to be believed, are some of the air safety and security violations occurring with impunity in Air India in the last three months.
These glaring violations were brought up in a letter by Indian Pilots' Guild (IPG), the recognized union of about 350 Air India pilots. The October 13 letter was sent to a host of top officials including Air India chairman and managing director, Arvind Jadhav, the directorate-general of civil aviation, the regional labour commissioner and the chief vigilance officer.
"When pilots express their inability to operate flights due to illness, Capt Bhasin issues verbal threats warning pilots of a number of consequences they may have to face if they avail of sick leave,'' says IPG president Jeetendra Awhad in the letter. Flying when unwell is an air safety violation under clause 42-4, part 5 of Indian Aircraft Rules.


Another allegation was made that Capt Bhasin has been rostering himself with his son on flights frequently. Capt M Ranganathan, an air-safety expert said that the practice violates International Civil Aviation Organisation's Document 8973 and 9811, which lists the post 9/11 mandatory security proce dures. "The cockpit door has to be in "Locked-down" condition and under no circumstance; it is to be opened in flight when there is a threat. But when relatives fly as crew, the cockpit door becomes a weak link in the security chain,'' says Capt Ranganathan. "If a pilot leaves the cockpit, the hijacker can emotionally blackmail the one sitting inside to unlock the cockpit door. He can then be commandeered for a 9/11 type of act,'' he said.
Despite complaints from several pilots as well as substantial, in-your-face proof, Air India came out in support of Bhasin and issued a blanket denial of all the allegations.
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Old 25th Oct 2010, 12:50
  #126 (permalink)  
 
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A little bird tells me that the famous Captain Rohit Bhasin and equally (in)famous expat Contract Manager AK Varma are now withholding the annual contract bonus of the expat P2 Captain involved in the “near death” incident. If the P2 does not get the money already allocated for payment by Air India central accounts, where and to whom does it go?
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Old 25th Oct 2010, 13:34
  #127 (permalink)  
 
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Oerr! But no suprises really!

The whole region seems to have this type of work ethic cover up when it goes wrong to save face!

If you can't get something done bribe your way through.

Failing that lean on the families connections to get your way or remove the problem if you not what I mean.

Nothing new!

Be very afraid these guys are lurky in many sectors above you!

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Old 25th Oct 2010, 22:15
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TopTup : the forum is not my profession, it appears to be yours though! Didn't have my head in the sand, but was busy on a long roster. Don't have internet access always, and even if i did, i'd come here after i've chatted with my wife n kids. Will take it up with you on PM once I'm back. The 131 pattern is a long one.

jstars : Checked the PM. I've already put this up in advance for the monthly commanders meeting. I hope to get answers then. Your friend will also be present at the meeting (I hope, since I see him rostered, but then rostering is another story). Will chat with him directly on this.
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Old 2nd Nov 2010, 14:16
  #129 (permalink)  
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Boeing7xx

Any progress made during your monthly meeting with B777 Chief Pilot & Base Captains on 2-Nov, re: the incident?
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Old 3rd Nov 2010, 20:28
  #130 (permalink)  
 
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this topic was discussed in the monthly meeting, it appears there are a lot of other who read the posts here, but rarely discuss..

Nonetheless, actions have been initiated and changes have been made. the latest circular is supposed to carry out the speeds for delhi specifically for the ULH, considering that chicago is also operational now.

Here is what we were told :-

The pilot involved has been de-rostered and since this incident was brought to light very late (almost 4-5mnths after the incident) the records need to be checked to see what is the data available on this flight.

What was also made clear that this is not a witch hunt based on an email from someone who surely is disgruntled with the airline at present as his final settlement is still pending. a fair and thorough investigation will be conducted.

The only thing I'd like to say at this point in time is that incidents happen, and sometimes we are the witness, it is in the interest of the airline and the salary you get that you record them well in time rather than wait for 6 months to bring this up as an issue when your settlement is pending. It does look a bit biased then.
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Old 3rd Nov 2010, 21:06
  #131 (permalink)  
 
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Hard to bring events to the authorities if the source believes the authorities will make the source the problem.

Human nature being what it is the source might wait until they leave the employment if they believe the system is designed to protect certain individuals vs. getting to the bottom of an event.

From your post (Boeing 7xx's) it appears those dynamics might be taking place.
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Old 4th Nov 2010, 07:42
  #132 (permalink)  
 
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misd-again it is a paradox of sorts, pilots don't report it because they believe they will be persecuted, hence the incident goes un-reported. They report it way after the incident has happened and there are little facts available at that point in time and people are unable to arrive at a conclusion for the lack of facts and the pilot has to be let off for want of evidence. Either way, the airline suffers.

I would believe that the right approach has to be to report any incident that you may believe is not in line with the SOP. Let the authorities investigate in detail with all facts that are available before arriving at a conclusion.

It cannot be a witch-hunt at the same time it has to be fair.
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Old 4th Nov 2010, 19:35
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ASAP program. And a culture that actually supports the process.
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Old 5th Nov 2010, 09:47
  #134 (permalink)  
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jstars2

I am sorry to tell you, but your post looks like a very naïve try to get few more jobs opening in India for people like you.

1. Since you have published it here, so the whole world knows it now, even those "undertrained" Indian Crew members as well as “government agents” intent to hang your "friend" if he published the story ?? Right ? So either you are lying or trying to have your “friend” killed .

2. If the T/O conditions were so "hot" and “heavy” (flight scheduled for a 15 hrs),
why do you insist on Reduced Power Setting for T/O ? It was short leg, domestic or what ?
3. If it really was 15 hrs flight so the V2 must have been, I guess 165 ? Can anybody check this one please ? Now….you saw the speed, over 230 FALLING all the way Down to V2-15 = ~150 !?!?!?
80 kts SPEED LOSS and you waited TILL last 3 BILLION NANOSECONDS to SCREEM all you “holly” commands , and teach us all how to behave in those conditions of your bad dream!!
I mean…hellllooooo
PS
You should try to get job in Hollywood….
I am fired for sure – or found dead in my hotel room in Delhi. I am sure he is politically well connected.”
 
Old 5th Nov 2010, 18:09
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Green Guard

If you re-read post #1 you will see that the report specifically states that
We were very heavy weight and the temperature was hot. No Assumed Temperature thrust reduction was used and we requested RWY 29 for departure to avail ourselves of the extra ground run
Is there some problem with your understanding of this wording as you ask
why do you insist on Reduced Power Setting for T/O?
You also ask:
It was short leg, domestic or what?
Do you have a similar problem with
Recent Air India B777-200LR Flight, DEL – JFK
That’s Delhi – New York, Kennedy – a very long sector, not a short leg, domestic or even an “or what”.
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Old 5th Nov 2010, 18:20
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I believe the story and in all truth it doesn't really surprise me. I'm actually more shocked that there haven't been more accidents on Indian carriers.

I have heard horror stories from the local flying schools that train a lot of Indians. Everything from blatant incompetence to not studying at all. Caste money dragging them through multiple Multi and IFR rides until they somehow limp through with a pass. What happens when they're done their training? Well time to go home to Mumbai and fly right seat on the 777. So not only do you have incompetent people flying heavy boeing/airbus, but these people barely have enough training to understand what "good hands and feet" means. I recall hearing a story a few years ago of a student who took about 150hours to get his private license. Apparently the money kept coming (so the school kept training) and 1.5years later he was flying a A320 somewhere in India. So now you have someone who could probably barely land a King Air in a cross wind, flying a heaving jet with 300hrs. It just boggles my mind.

I'm not saying this applies to all of them, in fact I've met a few of those students who are actually very smart and very eager to learn.

I'm sure Air India and Jet airways have some awesome people working for them, but they ARE tainted with incompetent people. It is for the above reasons that I would rather walk than EVER fly on one of those airlines.
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Old 5th Nov 2010, 21:38
  #137 (permalink)  
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anotherpost75

Hello my friend

You try to protect the lier.
We were very heavy weight and the temperature was hot.
They even asked for a long RWY..
There was NO need to mention Reduced Thrust Setting.

Since it is obvious that the guy is lier, and mixed up long and short sector here.

Stll, if he is not successfull in Holywood, pls tell him to try Bolywood...

 
Old 5th Nov 2010, 23:57
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Green Guard

I’m sure not going to get into a p*ssing contest with you over this and I’d think that jstars2 is well able to hold his own corner but I think that you are very confused over this matter.

Perhaps you should read the post # 131 of Boeing7xx, who seems to be an Air India B777 pilot and says he knows the personalities involved:
The pilot involved has been de-rostered and since this incident was brought to light very late (almost 4-5mnths after the incident) the records need to be checked to see what is the data available on this flight.

What was also made clear that this is not a witch hunt based on an email from someone who surely is disgruntled with the airline at present as his final settlement is still pending. a fair and thorough investigation will be conducted
Surely this should indicate that the event happened?

Meanwhile, you demonstrate complete lack of knowledge of the B777 itself. Should you not get back to flying your MS Flight Sim and leave the big boys and girls to get on with the professional aviation?
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Old 6th Nov 2010, 00:36
  #139 (permalink)  
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anotherpost75

If this incident surely happened do you understand
that it was YOUR friend who greatly contributed to it ?
Waiting for a speed loss of ~ 80 kts
to start screeming like a madman.

PS
He may still be good for Bolywood
 
Old 6th Nov 2010, 03:09
  #140 (permalink)  
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Just a regular pax here but one who chooses his carriers with care over the past 35 years of adult life, due to the care with which my father chose them for me in the preceding 11 years of paxing.

This was early in the thread - and I have read every single post:
Huck
It's not like that everywhere.

We are required to keep up our hand-flying skills. And demonstrate them regularly. Our philosophy has swung back from the other side.
I wonder if that's because, in recent years, there have been enough prangs and bodies to get media attention? It is usually the case that, until there have been enough prangs and bodies, nothing changes.

Whilst there are some in this thread who dispute the veracity of the original statement relayed by jstars2, the reason I believe it is that - the greatest majority support the contention and offer corroboration. I have noticed this in other threads over the years. If a carrier is not up to scratch - it is generally known. Equally, if a carrier is good - it is acknowledged.

PS Had just posted when I saw this headline: BBC News - Barack Obama heads to India on first leg of Asian tour The first words are:
US President Barack Obama arrives in India on Saturday for the first leg of an Asian tour, with hopes of boosting US exports and creating jobs.

Sat 6th: US President Barack Obama has announced $10bn (£6.2bn) in new trade deals with India.
Naturally it's very important to ensure that your trading partners can operate into and out of your country with ease.

Last edited by PAXboy; 6th Nov 2010 at 19:24. Reason: Updating the news line about Obama
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