Air India Express B738 crash
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 5,896
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From: Rockytop, Tennessee, USA
The only common factor appears to be poor command by the Captains concerned.
Today we tend to fly as crews. There was a discussion here of PF and PNF botched coordination and disagreement on a go around decision and Flyingphil cited the CI TPE crash as an example of how not to do it. I replied with a mention of the eerily similar CI NGO crash. My apologies if we were out of line.
Caveats, Flyingphil is not a pilot and I drive the lav truck so we always appreciate your superior views here.
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 18,575
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From: UK
I drive the lav truck
To repeat: Flyingphil's 'accident' does not state who flew the g/a
Your first shows a botched HANDLING during an INADVERTENT g/a , not a 'decison'.
Your second doesn't even mention a g/a
Mangalore = no go-round. Compute.
With my inferior knowledge of how you fly today as crew, it looks very much like all the Captains involved in those accidents failed to exercise command of a crew (of more than one)?
Edit: Thanks Aditya
Last edited by BOAC; 9th June 2010 at 07:31.
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 63
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From: Germany
Sorry Guys, I copied the wrong link.
Read about this incident in a book years ago in which several CVR-Recordings were listed. This book contains several incidents/accidents of A300s in Asia unfortunately.
This one here is the correct one:
ASN Aircraft accident Airbus A300B4-622R HL7296 Cheju Airport (CJU)
And here with the detail of "disagreements" between the flight-crew whether to abandon or execute the landing.
Accident Database: Accident Synopsis 08101994
Concerning to the book mentioned the Captain was a US- or Canadian Expat and PF on the leg and gave the "Contine Landing"-Command when suddenly the F/O initiated a GA.
This lead (as mentioned in the links) to a delayed Touch-Down with subsequent overran of the RWY.
May I ask again if anybody who works or has worked for a Pilot-Agency to share his/her experiences of Training before joining an operator?!?!
I knew some pilots of my company who worked elsewhere before and had to get used to our procedures although they joined us as DEC.
Some of them were retired guys from our national major airline
with over 20K in the log.
In addition I watched several Justplanes-DVD's in the past and came across a bunch of different tasks and procedures with the same acfts e.g. A320
Would be interesting to know how this potential for critical mistakes (Which might also be applicapable here) is handled!
Read about this incident in a book years ago in which several CVR-Recordings were listed. This book contains several incidents/accidents of A300s in Asia unfortunately.
This one here is the correct one:
ASN Aircraft accident Airbus A300B4-622R HL7296 Cheju Airport (CJU)
And here with the detail of "disagreements" between the flight-crew whether to abandon or execute the landing.
Accident Database: Accident Synopsis 08101994
Concerning to the book mentioned the Captain was a US- or Canadian Expat and PF on the leg and gave the "Contine Landing"-Command when suddenly the F/O initiated a GA.
This lead (as mentioned in the links) to a delayed Touch-Down with subsequent overran of the RWY.
May I ask again if anybody who works or has worked for a Pilot-Agency to share his/her experiences of Training before joining an operator?!?!
I knew some pilots of my company who worked elsewhere before and had to get used to our procedures although they joined us as DEC.
Some of them were retired guys from our national major airline
with over 20K in the log.In addition I watched several Justplanes-DVD's in the past and came across a bunch of different tasks and procedures with the same acfts e.g. A320
Would be interesting to know how this potential for critical mistakes (Which might also be applicapable here) is handled!
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 5,896
Likes: 1
From: Rockytop, Tennessee, USA
Sorry Guys, I copied the wrong link.
Read about this incident in a book years ago in which several CVR-Recordings were listed. This book contains several incidents/accidents of A300s in Asia unfortunately.
Read about this incident in a book years ago in which several CVR-Recordings were listed. This book contains several incidents/accidents of A300s in Asia unfortunately.
Concerning to the book mentioned the Captain was a US- or Canadian Expat and PF on the leg and gave the "Contine Landing"-Command when suddenly the F/O initiated a GA.
This lead (as mentioned in the links) to a delayed Touch-Down with subsequent overran of the RWY.
This lead (as mentioned in the links) to a delayed Touch-Down with subsequent overran of the RWY.
). I believe he came from Wardair and had to flee the country on short notice to avoid possible charges as an expat commander involved in an accident. I think he may be retired from Air Canada by now.It is a classic case of how not to do it. They probably had room to either land long and stop or go around but not do both halfway. I too thought of this crash when details began to emerge on the AIX mishap: expat and local crew, reported dispute over landing or go around and reports of a late touchdown.
Joined: Aug 2009
Aviation Qualifications: Military
Posts: 9,328
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From: Texas
Interesting point on the options as FO to call for go around (waveoff in some circles) by either pushing power forward, or raising gear.
My first instinct would be that the better choice is add power. Power and attitude are the first two determinants of performance, tough configuration is a non trivial third.
Seems to me that raising the gear merely adds the chance of a gear up landing to an already f&!@$#d up situation.
I may be biased by the number of times I yelled "power" and slammed the throttles forward (yes, attitude to climb chosen) to initiate a waveoff when a student pilot got us too slow, or too something, a bit too close to the ground. Power gives you options via energy.
What was instructive was to see other ways of looking at it. Many different ways to peel the onion.
My first instinct would be that the better choice is add power. Power and attitude are the first two determinants of performance, tough configuration is a non trivial third.
Seems to me that raising the gear merely adds the chance of a gear up landing to an already f&!@$#d up situation.
I may be biased by the number of times I yelled "power" and slammed the throttles forward (yes, attitude to climb chosen) to initiate a waveoff when a student pilot got us too slow, or too something, a bit too close to the ground. Power gives you options via energy.
What was instructive was to see other ways of looking at it. Many different ways to peel the onion.
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 91
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From: Canada
On this one, the captain BW was a 'North American' (i.e. a Canadian, not an American or a Mexican ). I believe he came from Wardair and had to flee the country on short notice to avoid possible charges as an expat commander involved in an accident. I think he may be retired from Air Canada by now.
"This is old news but it's worth mentioning. I just found out today that the captain of the ill-fated KE A300, died of cancer a few months ago. He was a CDN 767 F/O before his death. RIP"
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 5,896
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From: Rockytop, Tennessee, USA
This is a quote from an archived post on PPRuNe - sent on 23 Feb 2001
Joined: Mar 2010
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From: Grounded
Originally Posted by Centaurus
How does the F/O fix the problem, exactly? his support calls went unheeded. It is usually obvious by 200 ft agl that the aircraft is going to finish in the over-run if high and fast on a short wet runway - or in the under-run if undershooting. So what happens if the F/O says calmly "Captain - I have control and we are going around Sir".
Joined: Jun 2000
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
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From: Australia
I'm just a PAX so may be talking rubbish
Joined: Mar 2009
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From: mumbai
Thanks a lot IFLYtb20
Hi!,
Thank you for pointing this out IFLYtb20. I cant believe that a newspaper would use posts without so much as an acknowledgement.
I guess professionalism is not their strong suit.
Just wondering if the administrator has any comments on the issue (on pprune policy)?
Cheers
Wispering Willows
Thank you for pointing this out IFLYtb20. I cant believe that a newspaper would use posts without so much as an acknowledgement.
I guess professionalism is not their strong suit.
Just wondering if the administrator has any comments on the issue (on pprune policy)?
Cheers
Wispering Willows
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 942
Likes: 0
From: dubai
All very well bashing up on foreign pilots, down there in India..
Clearly the handling pilot got it "wrong".
What if the PIC was incapacitated, through fatigue or some other reason? Is it not the f/o's job and indeed duty, to take over if he thinks there will be a crash?? It doesn't matter how inexperienced or experienced the other pilot is, that is his most important duty. If necessary get the axe out! From the CVR transcript, he was of that opinion, or he would not have suggested a go around.
Have we not moved on from, 1976, Tenerife?
When I interview a prospective f/o a question I throw in is this. "If I was carrying out an approach and you thought we were going to crash, what would be your actions??"
Clearly the handling pilot got it "wrong".
What if the PIC was incapacitated, through fatigue or some other reason? Is it not the f/o's job and indeed duty, to take over if he thinks there will be a crash?? It doesn't matter how inexperienced or experienced the other pilot is, that is his most important duty. If necessary get the axe out! From the CVR transcript, he was of that opinion, or he would not have suggested a go around.
Have we not moved on from, 1976, Tenerife?
When I interview a prospective f/o a question I throw in is this. "If I was carrying out an approach and you thought we were going to crash, what would be your actions??"
Last edited by doubleu-anker; 13th June 2010 at 19:12.
Thread Starter
Joined: Apr 2009
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From: On a Wing!
End of a tiring duty cycle and a very hard Qtr in the peak of a circadian low...
It gets one thinking. I've personally found myself nearly nodding off during the approach phase of an usually tiring 9 hour / 2 landing duty cycle doing PM for the F/O. This is an effort just to keep awake...
What happens if you have a complicated decision to make towards the fag end of that duty cycle...
It bothers me...and thus came FRMS.
It gets one thinking. I've personally found myself nearly nodding off during the approach phase of an usually tiring 9 hour / 2 landing duty cycle doing PM for the F/O. This is an effort just to keep awake...
What happens if you have a complicated decision to make towards the fag end of that duty cycle...
It bothers me...and thus came FRMS.
Last edited by King on a Wing; 20th June 2010 at 17:39.
Joined: Apr 2007
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From: OMAA
WSJ article Pilot Error Seen as Likely Cause of Air India Mangalore Crash - WSJ.com
Any steps resulting in improved safety is . Safety comes before comfort and facilities. SAFETY FIRST.
While it's still early for conclusions, some formal findings could be announced shortly. A spokesmen for India's civil aviation ministry said Friday that "the probe will be completed [by the] end of this month and [a] report will be out July 1." On Friday, a spokesman for Air India, the national carrier, said it "will announce some new plans" next month, but declined to elaborate.
Prompted partly by the crash, DGCA officials are scrambling to demonstrate a tougher approach. They are considering imposing or reiterating rules that for many years have been mainstays of global aviation safety.
Prompted partly by the crash, DGCA officials are scrambling to demonstrate a tougher approach. They are considering imposing or reiterating rules that for many years have been mainstays of global aviation safety.
. Safety comes before comfort and facilities. SAFETY FIRST.
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 30
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From: Currently unemployed and live in my parents basement
Yes!!!! they have increased safety tenfold..require all expats an air force medical Must be able to do 100 pushups in under a minute, 30 Chinups in under a minute and run 3200 meters under 11 minutes.