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Air India Express B738 crash

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Air India Express B738 crash

Old 9th Sep 2010, 16:59
  #461 (permalink)  
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I trust he was referring to the other poster
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Old 9th Sep 2010, 17:08
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Follow me through here: the previous poster said the CVR only looped for 30 minutes, so how could the DGAC know the pilot had been asleep for 110 minutes? BOAC essentially said, "Because the CVR held 120 minutes..."

Works for me.
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Old 9th Sep 2010, 17:20
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As this was one of the later manufactured aircraft it had the 120 minute capacity systems versus 30 or 60 minutes as installed on the older aircraft.
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Old 9th Sep 2010, 19:36
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Originally Posted by stepwilk
Follow me through here: the previous poster said the CVR only looped for 30 minutes, so how could the DGAC know the pilot had been asleep for 110 minutes? BOAC essentially said, "Because the CVR held 120 minutes..."

Works for me.
Sorry....my bad.
Note to self : Look before you leap
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Old 10th Sep 2010, 00:01
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Facts are facts!!!!!

Having been involved in the AXI Flight Training Dept. I can confirm the following;

The CVR was 120 mins. as are ALL of AXI's fleet.

"Controlled Rest Breaks" were the norm flying these sort of sectors. Their purpose was to increase the situational awareness/performance of the crews. To avoid exactly this sort of an event!
Usually 30 mins. before TOD, both crew members should have been awake and preparing for approach, etc.

The SOP/FCTM clearly stated the criteria for stabilzed approaches and so forth.

The Boeing FCTM clearly states what "not to do" when reversers are deployed after touchdown on landing!
These facts seem not to have been acknowledged nor followed by this crew.

The GPWS obviously worked, and provided very important inputs to the crew and were avoided.

The CP seems to have felt his abilities were equal to that of a Boeing Test Pilot, who maybe could have managed after landing, to cancel reversers, stab. down trim, speed brakes down detent, Max. thrust and to retract flaps to at least 25. Then maybe rotated at SS+1kt before it was too late and they would have made it.

Was this CP a B737 Test Pilot ever?

The FO who rightfully knew they were un-stabilized demonstrated the lack of Command Capability (he was doing his UG I believe?) in taking control of the aircraft, instead thought it better to transmit his essentially useless RT or Inter-cocpit calls. We see the price he and all others paid for that decision. Maybe in this case physical intervention or even a slap on the CPs face would have proven to have been the right choice?

In my opinion AXI was extremely poorly run from the training/checking side while I was there and from reports of current training personel - still is.

Not one Foreign CP was ever checked by their Agent for their credentials, experience, References nor seriously probed for their past history before joining.
Foreign Pilots who had an Instructor Rating from Timbuck Too Authority on Piston Aircraft were given TRI Validations on the 737NG by the DGAC and provided their form of training and checking for AXI! These were people who were experts on Carb Heat, now knew all there was about HMU's without looking at one book or receiving any approved TRTO courses!

No interview was ever held nor any sort of serious sim. check to join as a Foreigner.

Initial Line Training for new Foreign CPs consisted usually of 4 sectors - with one night landing that was it and release for flight!

Nepotism, favourtism, etc. are factors that led to this. That includes most Managers (all Indians by the way), etc. were in their current positions mainly due to - you guessed it -Vitamin A-! They all knew the current status but it was accepted and allowed to get worse since 2006. Dozens of qualified Foreigners commented on this, but to fall on deaf ears.

During my time there, after dozens of Flight Safety Reports written, many serious QAR violations being recorded by our Safety Dept. on crews. In one 3 month block 6 GPWS Terrain Warning in IMC and the CPs never disconnected the AP and took appropriate actions!
Such items -very very few were ever responded too by Management correctly...... so this all catches up eventiually as we see here.

That is why I left AXI long.

The best is the Manager/Chief Pilot who was in charge of this Fleet during those times, has been removed and is now in charge of Foreign Captain Recruitment for AXI.

Last edited by WellFrackMe; 10th Sep 2010 at 13:19. Reason: Corrections
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Old 12th Sep 2010, 05:24
  #466 (permalink)  
 
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Bl**dy Alarming!!

If even half the posts regarding the flying environment in AI Express had some element of truth in them, it all adds up to some extremely alarming stuff!! I do hope the CoI recommends appropriate corrective measures and more importantly, those measures are imposed on AI!
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Old 12th Sep 2010, 07:48
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Until very recently, 'go-arounds" were an "offense" in India, and reported directly to the highest level of the DGCAA..maybe that was also on their minds..
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Old 12th Sep 2010, 08:36
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All they know is that one pilot was sleeping during cruise, they just assume it was the captain.
For some reason they are trying to make sleeping into a negative issue, something that may have contributed to the accident.
Catching some shut eye during cruise on single/double night sectors is a necessity and good airmanship. You sacrifice some alertness during cruise and transfer it to the more demanding approach and landing phase.

It's only a temporary fix if your roster is legal but extremely tiring. Having said that, I know naught about the AIX quality of rostering.
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Old 12th Sep 2010, 10:43
  #469 (permalink)  
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All they know is that one pilot was sleeping during cruise, they just assume it was the captain
- they are not that stupid, actually. A lot of pilots know that it is rare for a sleeping pilot to activate his/her transmit button.
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Old 12th Sep 2010, 13:54
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Well-Fracked:

Thank you for being one of the only Indian Nationals to admit openly the training standards and recruitment methodology at AI / AIE.

If you were anything like me, the continued breaches, while bought to the attention of "management" and the respective "safety" departments, were dismissed, lost or brushed under the putrid carpet. (Possibly more dirty than the one at 1st Class check in??)

What you said about expat recruitment is so true. As well as the rampant corruption and nepotism in basic recruitment and training.

And what has been learnt from this AIE tragedy? NOTHING. Even the report was shown to be so immature & pathetic in its review. Some scams and standards were bought to light here and at AI / AIE but they are found somewhere under that stinking carpet.

So, who here wants to risk a flight on a VT registered (AI / AIE) aircraft, "if" as one person wrote only half of what is written is true??
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Old 12th Sep 2010, 18:18
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Frack and Top

The two of you seem to be bitter anti expat nationals with chips on your shoulders and under the impression that if the expats were not there then more national F/Os were be upgraded by default.

Your allegations concerning the DGCA about certification and vetting of expat pilots are without merit. I've experienced the process of the DGCA interview, Air Law exam, credential verification too. Now I can't speak for all expat crews or pilot in India. Perhaps what you say about Air India Pilots may be true, being that AI is a state owned carrier.

The purpose of the expat is to fill a void until such time that the likes of you two, national pilots, can assume the responsibilities of aircraft commander. The private carriers of India ala INDIGO, JET AIRWAYS, SPICE JET, and KING FISHER do have a choice in the matter.

They can cave into the malevolent malcontents and cancel the contracts of expat pilots and let their aircraft sit on the ground without crews until the nationals can successfully succeed in their command upgrades. But the shareholders would never stand for that... and rightfully so.

What happened in Bangalore is a truly a tragedy. Your news agencies don't make it better either with their biased reporting. IMHO, Indian news agencies such as the Times of India and CNN-IBN are riddled with reporters which provide nothing short of material misrepresentations of facts which go unchecked concerning the expat pilot.
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Old 12th Sep 2010, 19:34
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The FO who rightfully knew they were un-stabilized demonstrated the lack of Command Capability (he was doing his UG I believe?) in taking control of the aircraft, instead thought it better to transmit his essentially useless RT or Inter-cocpit calls. We see the price he and all others paid for that decision. Maybe in this case physical intervention or even a slap on the CPs face would have proven to have been the right choice?
Most humans, barring a few existentialists don't consider death as imminent until they die one day. The F/O seemed to have thought more about protecting the medium term aftermath of an un-stabilized approach, and keeping his job intact.

To do the justice to F/O the death was not imminent at the time he made the apparently self protecting (but post facto determined to be essentially useless) R/T call about go around.
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Old 12th Sep 2010, 22:54
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BOAC, I don't understand whay you are talking about?

The analysis of the CVR revealed that there was sound nasal snoring and heavy breathing for nearly two hours, indicating that one of the two pilots—in all likelihood Serbian national Captain Zslatko Glucika, 55—had fallen asleep on his seat on the 200-minute flight of IX-812 that originated in Dubai (local time 1:10 am) on May 22.
I've been puzzled about the Effohs intercom calls going "on air", as this would be the last thing I would have time to do in what must been a high stress situation. However, if AIX -800's have a "press to talk" hot mike switch, rather than the type that stays in the hot mike position, it's possible he just pressed the wrong switch when he tried to talk to the captain. It's a two way switch on the yoke, press up for ATC, down for intercom. Easy to make a mistake.
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Old 12th Sep 2010, 23:44
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Captjns:

Wow...Have you got me wrong! Do the slightest bit of reviews of my previous posts on this thread.

I was an expat TRE at AI on the 777.

I agree with you about the purpose of the expats. Again, just do the minimal research on my previous posts...... I am completely in favor of the nationals being employed 100% WHEN and IF they receive the correct standards of recruitment, training, and on-going support. Nepotism, bribery, abhorrent corruption and an airline culture void of accountability (AI) prevents this. In my opinion it'll take perhaps 2 or 3 generations willing to change this as it is so deep rooted.

Until then the aviation scene under the DGCA is fraught with pure luck and risk. Safety is not part of it.
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Old 13th Sep 2010, 07:28
  #475 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Manada
BOAC, I don't understand whay you are talking about?
- do you understand what you can get from a CVR? I cannot see from your profile.
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Old 13th Sep 2010, 09:09
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One of the CVR channels picks up noise in the cockpit, there is no need to press a button to get it to record a snoring pilot. AFAIK, it does not have separate channels for the left and right side of the cockpit, so they can't say for sure who was asleep.
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Old 13th Sep 2010, 10:26
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They would make out from which side the PTT was pressed to make ATC position reports and could thus deduce very easily who was asleep and who was not.
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Old 13th Sep 2010, 10:43
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Doh, you are right, but I still don't understand why they are saying "in all likelihood Serbian national Captain Zslatko Glucika, 55—had fallen asleep on his seat", if they know for sure who was sleeping.

I've flown in near radio silence across the Arabian Sea a number of times. Sometimes the HF would be impossible to use, and you would just wait for Chennai VHF coverage.

Anyway, sleeping has nothing to do with this accident, unless he was sleeping during approach.
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Old 13th Sep 2010, 10:51
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My fellow pilots and I have oft had 'Combat Naps' in the cockpit. (One at a time, of course, and never more than 20 minutes.) I have never, ever heard one of my colleagues snore.
Even in the wee, dark hours, the arousal state of the non-napping pilot was always enhanced. No worries!
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Old 14th Sep 2010, 01:25
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...what kills is not the bullet

....it's the speed.

Who cares if he slept. That did not kill them. It was the unstable app.( if it is proven it was the case) So back to the topic and the real problem.
Where I work it used to be like that. Lots lots of unstable app with all its consequences , tragic some of them. It was until company culture , training tools , effective monitoring and people willing to make a change, that flying become more safe. When I hear about this case and all what has been mentioned I feel sad for the poor Indians that take public and privet transport. Until CORRUPTION, NEPOTISM BLA BLA BLA, disappears things will stay the same. Airplanes are SO safe that is why in India and other places as well, don't have the same number of tragedy's every year as they do with buses, trains and ferries.

Where there is a crack the root will grow in. Then is just a matter of time for the wall to collapse.

Remember snakes have no boobs, cats don't fly, birds don't bite, dogs have fur no feders.

Don't think to much:
UNSTABLE APPROACHES ARE NOT SAFE AND KILL PEOPLE!!!!
Don't think it wont happen to you.

Lets review:

Plan to be fully configured AND stable for instrument app at 1000 ft AAL. Stable at 500, if visual.

A/C in landing conf
Sink rate no more then 1100ft/min
Airspeed on target plus corrections according to AC type
Engines spooled up
No more that One dot above , below, right or left of GS / LOC
No more then 5 radials deviation left/right on a non precision app.
VASI PAPI no full Red / White.
Be sure A/C will land at the Touch Down Zone (TDZ)

Criteria not met: GO Around IS mandatory.

SO SIMPLE!
Now leave EGOS and Top Guns mentalities back home.
Be a Real Pilot and Stand for WHAT is right NOT WHO is right. If you do this your whining will be heard with respect. If not, go somewhere else, you don't belong here.

Last edited by VONKLUFFEN; 14th Sep 2010 at 01:39.
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