Air India Express B738 crash

[A4]

JW411........ You beat me to it.

A4

[leftseatview]

How would the ATC transcript reveal this info?

Without the CVR transcript how do they know that the F/O asked the Capt to Go around at 800'?
Either they have heard the CVR already and have a good idea of what really happened... or they are speculating/rumour mongering.
The ATC tapes are hardly likely to have such specific info.
i am very surprised that only ManaAdaSystem has caught on to this very obvious flaw in this report

[protectthehornet]

I feel sorry for the non pilots, or non airline experienced pilots

who are reading this thread.

concepts like: how can the captain be wrong? (it happens)

how can the first officer manage a situation in which the captain is wrong?

how are cultural differences magnifying problems?

its tough. not all airline pilots are great. let that sink into your brain...

it seems that the first officer tried to get the captain to ''go around'' to avoid a problem. some of us have thought that the first officer was flying the plane and didn't do it right.

but the truth is we really don't know.

But what we can say for certain is:

table top airports have special problems (this one and that one in Brazil not too long ago).

Stable approaches usually give perfectly acceptable landings.

Going for a grease job (smooth landing) on a table top airfield should be discouraged.

There are right ways to fly and wrong ways. Sadly, the wrong ways are resurfacing due to cost.

good luck to all

[Sqwak7700]

How on earth can a First Officer take command from a Captain who doesn't wish to relinquish same?

As someone mentioned, there are many ways to do this, like adding thrust. I remember once announcing to the tower that we were going around due to operational reasons. It worked for me.

And it was never an issue at the airline with a written two callout policy, because all crew know that they will not be supported if they ignore the concerns of the other pilot. Without such a policy, there is hesitation on both sides.

[Doors to Automatic]

You may be looking for a job later so make sure you are prepared for that. I was.

So the imbeciles in charge would rather have a smouldering wreck at the end of the runway? If that really is the case then you are better off in a company where averting a disaster is appreciated rather than punished - and better off alive!

[rspilot]

Are you guys really pilots? I can't believe what I am reading. Push the thrust levers forward? retract the landing gear? flap position to fifteen?

All of these methods are very risky. You are decreasing the stability of an aircraft at a dangerously low altitude. The whole desire to "go around" in the first place is because the aircraft hasn't stablilized, why make it worse?

Maybe upon landing the FO immediately grabbed the trust levers and pushed them to Max thrust causing the aircraft to lawn darted of the end. If the flaps are retracted indescriminately you could get stick shaker and then aggrivate it even more by trying to pull back on the stick.

I am being overly sarcastic of course but never try to influence a "go around" by destablizing an already unstable aircraft.

Why not simply tell the tower to cancel landing clearance due to bird activity, we have to go around. I find it hard to believe that anybody would continue to land an aircraft if the tower instructs a "go around". you are also giving the flying pilot a chance to save face without incriminating anybody and he will be glad to make it right the next time.

Bye the way, I have done this and it works. No, I didn't have two hundred fifty hours when it happened. I had years of experience and I know that every pilot wants to get it right but sometimes needs a bit of encouragement.

[p51guy]

Pushing the thrust levers to go around power keeps you airborn and climbing. It is not dangerous if the captain was doing something stupid in the first place. Talking on the radio to the tower is not appropriate at that time, action is. Each airline or company is different about how they would accept FO taking control but taking aggresive action is sometimes required to prevent a disaster. Staying alive is the goal.

[protectthehornet]

no matter how you slice it, taking over from a captain is a tough situation. the best thing to do is to avoid the situation way in advance...when I was a copilot, my flight instruction days paid off in keeping ahead of the captains.

if you are in a difficult situation you must speak up. if no reaction say something like: captain, its now on the tape that your FO tried to get you to go around and if you **** up and kill us, everyone will sue YOUR ESTATE and take all of your things away from your family.

OR..CAPTAIN if you go around right now, I will be on your side at the inquiry...if you don't, I will move up on the seniority list when they FIRE YOUR ASS.

and if this doesn't work, push the throttles forward and keep them there...this will force the situation as things will get even WORSE and the captain will have to go around.

a cup of coffee in the face might help too.

I've only been in even one close situation...and when we landed and the captain started screaming at me I said: fine, let's go to the chief pilot and the FEDS ( FAA). I'll be able to prove you were wrong and you will lose your ticket. HE BACKED DOWN like a prarie dog after seeing the shadow of a hawk.

[infrequentflyer789]

Originally Posted by protectthehornet

....
if you are in a difficult situation you must speak up. if no reaction say something like: captain, its now on the tape that your FO tried to get you to go around and if you **** up and kill us, everyone will sue YOUR ESTATE and take all of your things away from your family.

OR..CAPTAIN if you go around right now, I will be on your side at the inquiry...if you don't, I will move up on the seniority list when they FIRE YOUR ASS.

and if this doesn't work, push the throttles forward and keep them there...this will force the situation as things will get even WORSE and the captain will have to go around.

a cup of coffee in the face might help too.
...

Reminds me of something read recently in another report (referenced in Tripoli thread) http://www.atsb.gov.au/media/793232/ao2007044.pdf:

Although aware of the
requirement to alert the pilot flying of the continuing descent, the copilot was
momentarily unable to recall the correct phrase to be used

Be careful with that "push the throttles forward", "things will get even WORSE" may be an understatement - that "continuing descent" was on climb thrust at <100ft

I'm guessing that by then the "correct phrase" would be something a lot shorter involving "PULL UP" (and expletives, if time)... ?

[ note: I don't think that report is relevant for this incident, but it does make interesting reading - mode confusion, again... ]

[p51guy]

My flight when I forced a go around by going to go around power was before the airlines in a 4 engine corporate jet.
I have never felt that need in the airlines but I can see it approaching again with the new way of doing things. Soon we will be hiring computer pilots that don't have any experience, just pass the tests to be a pilot. Scarey. I see my previous airline dumbing down procedures and making it a totally mechanical approach with acars data telling the company they didn't do it their way. You can't add that extra 20 knot on final any more because of wind shear because you will be told on by acars. That 20 knots with known windshear has saved me several times but now you can't do it. The FO's are responsible to adhere to these parameters too so they can't protect you as the captain. I am happily retired but would hate to fly now with these silly restrictions. Who comes up with this sh-t?

[protectthehornet]

about 25 years ago, a TWA 767 pilot told me he added 23 knots to land at PHL.

The chief pilot called him in...he said: if you have to add 23 knots, you should have diverted.

OK, so...mechanical flying from now on...divert.

[p51guy]

Will reality ever come back to flying airliners? Why can't we fly like we have done for decades with great results? Sucking the natural flying abilities out of our pilots to fly like robots hooked to an acars is not promoting safety. This will bite them in the ass. Just wait. Tic Toc. My bet it will be a low level windshear that the pilots were not allowed to compensate for to keep the acars happy.

What do you think?

[TopTup]

p51wiseguy, the answer is "bean-counters". They rule aviation. No care, no responsibility but for a hefty quarterly bonus in their salary. This is their only concern. "Safety" is a catchphrase used to sell. Luck is the gambling tool. And the pilots? How long a sad history is there of pilots selling their soul to fly a shiny jet for below poverty line salaries and an over-zealous willingness to bow down to the boss' demands at the expense of that "safety" word, let alone professionalism. Egos and aspirations cloud judgement.

To answer other questions or points regarding an FO taking over, the FO needs to be
a) confident;
b) experienced;
c) have received sound and proper training;
d) posses skills to be able to take over;
e) know what an unstable approach is, despite what the SOPs say;
f) be assured that the airline will support him/her as opposed to blindly not letting the Cmdr lose face;

.......and so on and so forth.

How can they with 175-250 hrs (max) TT? What experience or confidence let alone training have they to call on? Their tool box is all but empty.

So, when NONE of these parameters are present due [criminally] negligent training programs, the FO simply does not posses these skills, by way of knowledge, experience, confidence, etc.

That is why guys like many of us would have or did have no problem about calling "GO AROUND" when the time came to do so. We came from a different [airline] culture or training and standards, let alone the "hour building" in GA and/or regionals.

We practice engine failures (all types), hydraulic, electrical, pneumatic failures, etc but not always CRM in the sim. A trick of mine was to pull the FO aside and tell him when I tap him on the shoulder he is to call "GO AROUND" despite CAVOK, nil wind conditions. (Does the Capt know what the FO saw mid-way down the runway when his/her attention is in between scan and touchdown point at 500-300 ft altitude?) Interesting results when dealing with a known autocratic Capt and / or submissive FO. Or, ask the PF to deliberately make an unstable approach (usually the Capt I would ask) to see how far the PM (usually FO) would let it go. Did he/she know the required callouts? Would he/she use them correctly? Would they have the confidence to call it, or take over? Same with reverse roles.

All pilots say (the Monday quarterbacks) "If I was there I would've....." So let's put them "there" via the sim.

How can we expect the CRM we teach in the classroom to be implemented inflight when it, unlike the other phases of flight, are not practiced, let alone even taught? Add to that nationalistic cultural issues and problems.

[aterpster]

protectthehornet:

There are right ways to fly and wrong ways. Sadly, the wrong ways are resurfacing due to cost.

Sigh, a sad amen.

[aterpster]

protectthehornet:

about 25 years ago, a TWA 767 pilot told me he added 23 knots to land at PHL.

The chief pilot called him in...he said: if you have to add 23 knots, you should have diverted.

OK, so...mechanical flying from now on...divert.

There must have been some other issue, such as a badly unstable approach. I didn't retire until late 1990 and never had a chief pilot be so arbitrary at TWA.

[RatherBeFlying]

Overriding the Captain is Counter-Instinctual

Twice in the last several weeks, I have eagerly carried out an order from a senior instructor that increased the danger. After knowing the guys for a few years and being on good terms with them and trusting their judgement, there is a tendency to do what you're told without thought.

I'm going to have to work harder on my skepticism, especially as the first lesson did not seem to take

[protectthehornet]

aterpster

it really happened. the pilot in question and I discussed it for along time. Even quoting the book, "handling the big jets" by davies.

I honestly have addes substantially more than 20 knots to land through difficult conditions, but had a long runway .

I also went through a great deal of effort to include in our ops manual the idea of adding speed for takeoff. EG; if you are below max takeoff weight for a runway...bug up to max takeoff weight speeds and have a cushion on takeoff in semi windshear conditions

[vapilot2004]

How on earth can a First Officer take command from a Captain who doesn't wish to relinquish same?

There's a wee button in the Airbus and VIA muscle on most Boeings and McDs.

[TopTup]

RatherBeFlying,

Good input in that what you went through is indicative of what (would assume ALL) pilots have gone through to varying degrees in their career. What we are taught in ground schools, what the SOPs state, etc comes up against some very strongly dominant social norms that are more embedded into a persons behavioral attributes than a 2 hr, 1 day or even 3 day CRM course can hope to over-ride.

At least you have the humility and training to look outside in and learn, adapt, change, improve. (Sorta sounds like set, hold, trim, monitor.....basic IF stuff?)

I also think that all too often (we as) Capts forget too quickly what it was like to be an FO. Not all cases, as it too comes back to social norms and airline culture.

Now, lets look back at AI / AIE and the systemic culture failing these pilots.

As CRM begins to divert toward a title of Threat Error Management (TER), will a simple name change, or definition include the need for LIVE CRM APPLICATION training, as did LOFT so many years ago?

(I'm sure some psychologist will develop a super-cool abbreviation for it! Hang on... LCAT! Now to only make some money out of it!)

[Centaurus]

I also went through a great deal of effort to include in our ops manual the idea of adding speed for takeoff. EG; if you are below max takeoff weight for a runway...bug up to max takeoff weight speeds and have a cushion on takeoff in semi windshear conditions

Now included in modified form in the Boeing 737 FCOM. Quote: "Consider increasing Vr speed to the performance limiting gross weight rotation speed, not to exceed actual gross weight V2 +20 knots. Set V speeds for the actual gross weight. Rotate at the adjusted (higher) rotation speed. This increased rotation speed result in increased stall margin and meets takeoff performance requirements. If windshear is encountered at or beyond the actual gross weight Vr, do not attempt to accelerate to the increased Vr but rotate without hesitation".