Air India Express B738 crash
The Cooler King
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I think that anyone who runs an airline but hasn't the piloting experience to back up decisions of an aeronautical nature, shouldn't be running the place.
You'd be ....... amazed!... stunned even!
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Plectron:
I appreciate your very honest reply, and I congratulate you for your ability to retain your professional integrity amidst all the BS which currently exists in the world of commercial airline operations.
I wish that I could say the same for GlueBall, whose response to my post seems to confirm my very worst fears
...
CJ
I appreciate your very honest reply, and I congratulate you for your ability to retain your professional integrity amidst all the BS which currently exists in the world of commercial airline operations.
I wish that I could say the same for GlueBall, whose response to my post seems to confirm my very worst fears
...CJ
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Gents - Mr. Boeing and Mr. Airbus promised the airline execs, 25 years ago, airplanes that anyone could operate and..... that the pay would be under $100,000 for Captains and under $50,000 for the FO by the time all was said and done. I was at the week long seminar on automation in 1984 in Washington.
No one should be surprised at what is happening.
CarJockey - I am afraid that Glueball has a point. I certainly do check the weather and consider what airline I am riding on.
No one should be surprised at what is happening.
CarJockey - I am afraid that Glueball has a point. I certainly do check the weather and consider what airline I am riding on.
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Whispering Willows reporting for Khaleej Times
Wah Wah WW ! Didn;t know you were a reporter as well ! ! ! ! Way to go Cap'n ! ! ! !But yes, this proves that Khaleej Times reads PPrune as well ! 
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Plectron
I spoke with the occupant of theBoeing Chair at MIT (Massachusetts Institude of Technology) in 1989...He agreed with what you have just posted regarding automation and pilot skill levels.
He went on to say that a 300 hour pilot would be adequate for something as big as a 747.
OUCH
I spoke with the occupant of theBoeing Chair at MIT (Massachusetts Institude of Technology) in 1989...He agreed with what you have just posted regarding automation and pilot skill levels.
He went on to say that a 300 hour pilot would be adequate for something as big as a 747.
OUCH
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Can someone please find a link to that wonderful sequence from "Space Cowboys" where Tommy Lee along with Clint & others bring the Shuttle back to earth, under manual flight, just for the hell of it, to show the youngsters what might be necessary and what can be done when micosoft 95 crashes and freezes. Magic.
I still find it scary that some airlines ban night landings without glide path guidance. We have to pass vision medicals but Mk.1 eyeball is not allowed. Can't wait for the press release when PM's a/c is diverted due to ILS failure and pilots are not allowed to land because no PAPI's. It will take just such an inconvenience to put the fire-craker up where it belongs. We are surely making backwards progress in skills. If it continues in such a vain consider where we'll be in 20 years. It will make playstations seems complicated. I wonder if we have more kids who play Wii tennis or golf than the real thing. Frightening, & fattening.
I still find it scary that some airlines ban night landings without glide path guidance. We have to pass vision medicals but Mk.1 eyeball is not allowed. Can't wait for the press release when PM's a/c is diverted due to ILS failure and pilots are not allowed to land because no PAPI's. It will take just such an inconvenience to put the fire-craker up where it belongs. We are surely making backwards progress in skills. If it continues in such a vain consider where we'll be in 20 years. It will make playstations seems complicated. I wonder if we have more kids who play Wii tennis or golf than the real thing. Frightening, & fattening.
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What kind of 300 hour pilot? The kind that 1000 hours later, thinks it's a good idea to put flaps up while your Q400 is in a stall like the Colgan Air FO did? I believe there are some people as you could say "born to fly" who learn and understand flying. Then there are those that are not gifted in coordination and not very good with piling things on their plate in stressful situations. Truthfully at any hour they are a danger. So let's not just bash low time pilots. How many high time pilots made stupid mistakes that cost hundreds of people their lives? It goes both ways
Longtimelurker
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With regret that i find and smile at all on thread like this in that we are talking about loss of life. However is there a pilot any place that would make a hard landing intentionally ??? firm on occasion but never hard....
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413X3
certainly there are some terrible pilots with alot more time than 300 hours.
I wasn't bashing 300 hour pilots. I was a very fine 300 hour pilot...over 30 years ago.
I've actually learned a couple of things since then. I think my passengers appreciate that.
Wouldn't you be more comfortable, all other things being equal, with a 10,000 hour pilot than a 300 hour pilot? Just experience with weather, poor ATC, would improve your abilities as a pilot.
Indeed, 1500 hours is the minimum legal requirement for a pilot in command (atp requirements) at a major airline in the USA (part 121)
I wasn't bashing 300 hour pilots. I was a very fine 300 hour pilot...over 30 years ago.
I've actually learned a couple of things since then. I think my passengers appreciate that.
Wouldn't you be more comfortable, all other things being equal, with a 10,000 hour pilot than a 300 hour pilot? Just experience with weather, poor ATC, would improve your abilities as a pilot.
Indeed, 1500 hours is the minimum legal requirement for a pilot in command (atp requirements) at a major airline in the USA (part 121)
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Of course I would be more comfortable, but that is why the left seat is there. And what better person to learn from with an inexperienced but eager to learn right seater with low time?
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However is there a pilot any place that would make a hard landing intentionally ??? firm on occasion but never hard..
And it is something that you occasionally have to do on the 738. Flap 40, ensure you cross the threshold at 50', touch down on the markers, apply reverse (2nd detent or beyond) without hesitation and let the autobrake and anti-skid do it's job. If it ain't, max manual and keep the reversers until you ensure that stopping is guaranteed. Short, wet runways with poor friction coefficients can ruin your day. They may leave the passengers gasping after a firm touchdown and plenty of braking. However if the PI says you can do it then make sure of it. The FCTM describes how this should be approached and makes it pretty obvious of the methods that should be adopted. Lessons were already in place from the Southwest 737-700 overrun at Chicago Midway in 2005 and more recently the American Airlines 737-800 at Kingston in December. We will all await the report from the AI accident, however it seems possible that stark similarities will be drawn.
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RAT 5 -
I still find it scary that some airlines ban night landings without glide path guidance. We have to pass vision medicals but Mk.1 eyeball is not allowed. Can't wait for the press release when PM's a/c is diverted due to ILS failure and pilots are not allowed to land because no PAPI's.
I still find it scary that some airlines ban night landings without glide path guidance. We have to pass vision medicals but Mk.1 eyeball is not allowed. Can't wait for the press release when PM's a/c is diverted due to ILS failure and pilots are not allowed to land because no PAPI's.
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Did I read it correctly that AI/AIX management require an air safety report after a Go-around? If so, the management need to be fired, now, the lot of them, from the chief pilot on up, right up. If true, then it is quite possible that the commander's reluctance to call off an unstable approach or a bad landing is the biggest contributory factor in this awful accident. The inept 'management' team are as much to blame with their dangerous and misguided directives as the poor captain who had to live and ultimately die with them.
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DCATE,
Quote:'Uh....with some of today's Captians accepting minimum fuel all the time, just how do you think they will divert? They won't have any fuel"Unquote.
DIVERTING means you have reached your planned reserve for diversion,,,hence you WILL have the fuel legally.Diversion fuel includes a go around at your destination...so diverting at your holding altitude will provide an extra margin of fuel at your alternate airport.
I fly around 95 % with minimum block, I diverted 2 times in the last 6 1/2 years.Even used 400 kgs less than minimum block due to a JAA rule when alternate fuel is not required.(cavok/2 runways/different app aids)..by the time i arrive at the airport i saved the 400 kgs(as i usually do/knowledge of routing/flightplan) and still have all the reserve for a flight without this regulation.
Being quite familiar with your company flight plan/airports/routing/ATC/Weather/ground delays/aircraft performance will avoid diverting even by taking the odd 300 Kgs extra just for the sake of it,which costs hell of a lot of money to your airline over the years.
My previous airlines had a fuel monitoring policy and it was clear that if 99% of crews took minimum fuel they would make it with the legal reserve to their destination.
Diverting due to reaching your reserve fuel was not even calling for an office meeting,not even a phone call to the boss
(much cheaper for the airline)but overfuelling just for the sakes of it did call for a few emails exchange , i was told.
When time comes to add fuel to to storms and long flow controls,then please do it and you wont feel bad about it believe me.
So please this above statement is purely nonsense.
Know your regs,aircraft and company ops and you will with time realize it.
Quote:'Uh....with some of today's Captians accepting minimum fuel all the time, just how do you think they will divert? They won't have any fuel"Unquote.
DIVERTING means you have reached your planned reserve for diversion,,,hence you WILL have the fuel legally.Diversion fuel includes a go around at your destination...so diverting at your holding altitude will provide an extra margin of fuel at your alternate airport.
I fly around 95 % with minimum block, I diverted 2 times in the last 6 1/2 years.Even used 400 kgs less than minimum block due to a JAA rule when alternate fuel is not required.(cavok/2 runways/different app aids)..by the time i arrive at the airport i saved the 400 kgs(as i usually do/knowledge of routing/flightplan) and still have all the reserve for a flight without this regulation.
Being quite familiar with your company flight plan/airports/routing/ATC/Weather/ground delays/aircraft performance will avoid diverting even by taking the odd 300 Kgs extra just for the sake of it,which costs hell of a lot of money to your airline over the years.
My previous airlines had a fuel monitoring policy and it was clear that if 99% of crews took minimum fuel they would make it with the legal reserve to their destination.
Diverting due to reaching your reserve fuel was not even calling for an office meeting,not even a phone call to the boss
(much cheaper for the airline)but overfuelling just for the sakes of it did call for a few emails exchange , i was told.When time comes to add fuel to to storms and long flow controls,then please do it and you wont feel bad about it believe me.
So please this above statement is purely nonsense.
Know your regs,aircraft and company ops and you will with time realize it.
Last edited by de facto; 28th May 2010 at 06:52.
Automation is great and has been paid for and definitely increases SITUATIONAL AWARENESS and contributes to Flight Safety
Despite this, the captain with his first officer gazing blankly at the nav display, proceeded to enter the VOR holding pattern into the CDU and then flew the holding pattern magenta line using heading select. It never occured to the crew that the actual VOR and the entered information were 15 miles away from each other.
A glance at raw data from the VOR/RMI needles would have shown the tracking error. Neither of the two pilots knew how to interpret the readings from the RMI. They had been accustomed to receiving ATC radar vectors for most of their flying career and relying totally on the magenta line. Their situational awareness did not exist..
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Scary
However a crew who is properly trained will be able to revert to raw data procedures without losing his situation awareness.Lets not blame it on the A/P.
However awareness may be degraded due to system failures(Flights after loss of both Generators),(ATC is there for you!).
Flying a raw data full procedure with the A/P does give you an extra brain power to increase your situation awareness by spending some of your neurons cross checking your position instead of using this time/effort flying manually.
I hope they got extra training, this performance should ban them from flying the line again until proven they can manage it after extra sessions.
Complacency is not all due to A/Ps but crews personal will to stay at a level required for safe flights.
Airlines must check basic skills before allowing pilots to fly their aircraft.
However a crew who is properly trained will be able to revert to raw data procedures without losing his situation awareness.Lets not blame it on the A/P.
However awareness may be degraded due to system failures(Flights after loss of both Generators),(ATC is there for you!).
Flying a raw data full procedure with the A/P does give you an extra brain power to increase your situation awareness by spending some of your neurons cross checking your position instead of using this time/effort flying manually.
I hope they got extra training, this performance should ban them from flying the line again until proven they can manage it after extra sessions.
Complacency is not all due to A/Ps but crews personal will to stay at a level required for safe flights.
Airlines must check basic skills before allowing pilots to fly their aircraft.