Air India Express B738 crash
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Stress, Fatigue, Frustration ??
The most likely cause of this accident could be the FATIGUE factor.
The bean counters are solely responsible for playing with the lives of passengers by lobbying for increase in FDTL.
The paying passengers need to be seriously enlightened on how unsafe their flights are when the crews are stressed, frustrated (degrading T&Cs etc) and fatigued.
It is extremely alarming to even think of what we might expect in the near future, when we have pilots at the controls, who are drained, memotivated and frustrated because they had to pay for their type ratings, line training and to get a job !!
The bean counters are solely responsible for playing with the lives of passengers by lobbying for increase in FDTL.
The paying passengers need to be seriously enlightened on how unsafe their flights are when the crews are stressed, frustrated (degrading T&Cs etc) and fatigued.
It is extremely alarming to even think of what we might expect in the near future, when we have pilots at the controls, who are drained, memotivated and frustrated because they had to pay for their type ratings, line training and to get a job !!
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you don't know jack. load up the colleague? what is he there for...just to sit down?
All you do is load up your colleague, especially on a dark cr@ppy night at the end of 12 hour duty..... Handflying is fine from time to time, but seriously - from top of drop to touchdown??????????
Maybe occasionally I can understand. The AP is there for a reason to take the workload off the pilot so he can concentrate on things like situational awareness
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No-one can be serious here? FATIGUE? What?! Do you mean 'tired' or do you have some evidence that fatigue existed? The two are quite separate. In any case, around 8:30-9 hours FDP is not exactly punishing, is it?
White Night - we are not worthy to comment on this 'hand-flying' thing - you need to be an 'ace' to know.
White Night - we are not worthy to comment on this 'hand-flying' thing - you need to be an 'ace' to know.
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A New Plague looms
All arguments aside I wanted to compare some salient points between an accident a few days ago (Afriquiyah) and this one
1. Both were new aircraft
2. Both were in about the same phase of flight
3. Both were being flown by captains with substantial number of hours under their belt
4. Both captains were familiar with the destination/homebase (AIE captain had done this route 19 times prior).
5. Both flight were arriving at or around the same time of the day
6. Viz and Wx were normal with nothing extra ordinary being reported.
7. IX was a QTA and Afriqya could be almost termed as this or in simpler terms very long point to point hours for the crew (Fatigue).
They both are have an disconcertingly similar pattern wherein by some horrible miscalculation an other wise competent crew on an other wise normal day flew a perfectly good aircraft into the ground.
Posters have used terms such as "gethomeittiss". As a lay person without passing judgment in both cases this seems to be the pattern where an exhausted, overworked crew doing all night flights with the body clock out of control on return to home base got complacement as the approach was simple. Before I get shot down I am not blaming the pilot and in fact I am blaming the situation countries in this region have gotten them selves into.
A Pilot can fly several sectors within India/US/Europe departing at sun up and returning by sun down and that will tire him out, but what will drive a person into the ground is a routine similar to what this crew did. They probably attempted to sleep during the day, woke up at 16:00 to reach the airport. Flew out at 20:00 on a QTA and were arriving back home dreaming of their bed and the next few days of (that also if???). Add that up and the guys were probably up for the past 14 hours with another 2 to go before they could hit the sack. Who knows their previous day schedules???
Well why has this not happened in the past (or has it with such frequency?).
Well low cost carriers, Rs 500 fares, desire to cut costs and allow everyone to fly are making airlines find innovative ways to cut costs.
1st went the food, then the baggage and the liquor, then the seat assignment. When all that could be taken from a passenger was taken they start looking at crew. Once they are done with that they will look at the aircraft, as to what all capital expenditure can be trimmed.
If forums from the ME South Asia and South East Asia are to be read then all crews seem to have this grouse about QTA. For a SLF one did not understand and infact used wonder how a person could complain with a 90 hour work load..........reality is that on QTA in these zones it can be a 18 hour day from pillow to pillow. NOT SAFE. For those in the US and Europe such QTA flights (by that I mean overnight) simply are not there due to the noise restrictions in place.
India - Gulf
India - Hong Kong
India - BKK
India - SIN
India - KL
Sri Lanka - India
These in my opinion are all the routes that airlines are trying to save money on by either doing QTA or using same crew for the return after minimum mandated rest period. Also these ports for the most part do not have the noise restrictions other countries have
I would like to seem some DGCA action on this where in such QTA flights are then pushed to all day time flights and over night rest for crew is mandated for other flights. If it costs a few bucks so what. At least 158 lives will be saved the next time.
In true clinical fashion the PIC will be blamed for reason. In fact what they should blame is the Cause as stated above.
Time for India to bring in noise regulations as in the west. if not anything else it will at least ensure such QTA and long hours become un viable. The crew can then rest at the time man should ie Night.
As in every accident it has been said it is multiple causes that lead to a tragedy. I hope this cause receives it's due attention to.
As an SLF I have always avoided night flights (except ULH). I get tired why wouldn't the crew?
RIP to those aviators and the other souls and hope someone learns from these mistakes
1. Both were new aircraft
2. Both were in about the same phase of flight
3. Both were being flown by captains with substantial number of hours under their belt
4. Both captains were familiar with the destination/homebase (AIE captain had done this route 19 times prior).
5. Both flight were arriving at or around the same time of the day
6. Viz and Wx were normal with nothing extra ordinary being reported.
7. IX was a QTA and Afriqya could be almost termed as this or in simpler terms very long point to point hours for the crew (Fatigue).
They both are have an disconcertingly similar pattern wherein by some horrible miscalculation an other wise competent crew on an other wise normal day flew a perfectly good aircraft into the ground.
Posters have used terms such as "gethomeittiss". As a lay person without passing judgment in both cases this seems to be the pattern where an exhausted, overworked crew doing all night flights with the body clock out of control on return to home base got complacement as the approach was simple. Before I get shot down I am not blaming the pilot and in fact I am blaming the situation countries in this region have gotten them selves into.
A Pilot can fly several sectors within India/US/Europe departing at sun up and returning by sun down and that will tire him out, but what will drive a person into the ground is a routine similar to what this crew did. They probably attempted to sleep during the day, woke up at 16:00 to reach the airport. Flew out at 20:00 on a QTA and were arriving back home dreaming of their bed and the next few days of (that also if???). Add that up and the guys were probably up for the past 14 hours with another 2 to go before they could hit the sack. Who knows their previous day schedules???
Well why has this not happened in the past (or has it with such frequency?).
Well low cost carriers, Rs 500 fares, desire to cut costs and allow everyone to fly are making airlines find innovative ways to cut costs.
1st went the food, then the baggage and the liquor, then the seat assignment. When all that could be taken from a passenger was taken they start looking at crew. Once they are done with that they will look at the aircraft, as to what all capital expenditure can be trimmed.
If forums from the ME South Asia and South East Asia are to be read then all crews seem to have this grouse about QTA. For a SLF one did not understand and infact used wonder how a person could complain with a 90 hour work load..........reality is that on QTA in these zones it can be a 18 hour day from pillow to pillow. NOT SAFE. For those in the US and Europe such QTA flights (by that I mean overnight) simply are not there due to the noise restrictions in place.
India - Gulf
India - Hong Kong
India - BKK
India - SIN
India - KL
Sri Lanka - India
These in my opinion are all the routes that airlines are trying to save money on by either doing QTA or using same crew for the return after minimum mandated rest period. Also these ports for the most part do not have the noise restrictions other countries have
I would like to seem some DGCA action on this where in such QTA flights are then pushed to all day time flights and over night rest for crew is mandated for other flights. If it costs a few bucks so what. At least 158 lives will be saved the next time.
In true clinical fashion the PIC will be blamed for reason. In fact what they should blame is the Cause as stated above.
Time for India to bring in noise regulations as in the west. if not anything else it will at least ensure such QTA and long hours become un viable. The crew can then rest at the time man should ie Night.
As in every accident it has been said it is multiple causes that lead to a tragedy. I hope this cause receives it's due attention to.
As an SLF I have always avoided night flights (except ULH). I get tired why wouldn't the crew?
RIP to those aviators and the other souls and hope someone learns from these mistakes
They both are have an disconcertingly similar pattern wherein by some horrible miscalculation an other wise competent crew on an other wise normal day flew a perfectly good aircraft into the ground.
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Very true BOAC....
Who is jack? You're right - I don't know him.. Please tell me who is is.
As for flying - I think I'll let the AP do what it's supposed to do and let me manage the aeroplane.....
Originally Posted by protectthehornet
white knight...you don't know jack.
As for flying - I think I'll let the AP do what it's supposed to do and let me manage the aeroplane.....
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Hand flying SIDs every now and then is good for instrument flying. I do this mainly with the FD.
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Throttle Quadrant
From AV Herald "....both throttles were found in fully forward positions".
Does this mean that full thrust had been engaged and that the aircraft was likely configured for TOGA?
Or the converse, or something else?
Thanks
Does this mean that full thrust had been engaged and that the aircraft was likely configured for TOGA?
Or the converse, or something else?
Thanks
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@white knight
I fully agree. We have all the automatics to make flying easier and safer, so we should use the automatics - as long as they work fine -
Those automatics cost a lot of money. why not use them ? we should be lucky to have the automatics and my first aim is to work with the automatics, to use them !!!
if some superpilots want to do handflying in excess, take a 152 and fly around. passengers in the back dont pay the fare for the fun of the handflying superpilots, but to get from a to b in a safe and stressless way
I know very well why all this superpilots prefer "handflying
" "raw data".
its because they are unable to work with the automatics, they cannot use it, because they dont have any clue about the automatics, therefore.....see above.
no longer we are "little Lindberghs", but AircraftSystemManager. We have to manage the automatics of an aircraft. thats what we are paid for.
in no case we are paid for flying rawdata SID or STAR, handfly from TOD to LDG, etc this is just NON-Airmanship, and a crappy behaviour
I fully agree. We have all the automatics to make flying easier and safer, so we should use the automatics - as long as they work fine -
Those automatics cost a lot of money. why not use them ? we should be lucky to have the automatics and my first aim is to work with the automatics, to use them !!!
if some superpilots want to do handflying in excess, take a 152 and fly around. passengers in the back dont pay the fare for the fun of the handflying superpilots, but to get from a to b in a safe and stressless way
I know very well why all this superpilots prefer "handflying
" "raw data".its because they are unable to work with the automatics, they cannot use it, because they dont have any clue about the automatics, therefore.....see above.
no longer we are "little Lindberghs", but AircraftSystemManager. We have to manage the automatics of an aircraft. thats what we are paid for.
in no case we are paid for flying rawdata SID or STAR, handfly from TOD to LDG, etc
this is just NON-Airmanship, and a crappy behaviour
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In true clinical fashion the PIC will be blamed for reason. In fact what they should blame is the Cause as stated above.
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
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Akron - it means very little. The FDR will tell all. When an a/c suffers the fate that this one did, all sorts of levers etc get moved. The only 'likely' inference we can draw is that the reversers were not deployed at the moment it came to a stop, but again, severe crash damage could throw that theory out. There is very little point in speculating.
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test your self white knight (and others)...Next landing see if you can put her down right on the spot you have preselected. or certainly within 200 feet of that spot.
narrowbodies , let's say the fixed distance marker (1000')
widebodies, let's say the end of the 1500' marker.
And dear pilots, if you can't keep situational awareness on a dark stormy night while answering the radio, selecting altitudes and headings...oh MY!
narrowbodies , let's say the fixed distance marker (1000')
widebodies, let's say the end of the 1500' marker.
And dear pilots, if you can't keep situational awareness on a dark stormy night while answering the radio, selecting altitudes and headings...oh MY!
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As for flying - I think I'll let the AP do what it's supposed to do and let me manage the aeroplane.....
Gee and here I thought pilots actually flew the airplane The entire concept of the PF as a systems manager lies at the heart of this all. When it reaches a point that your getting more actual "stick and rudder" time in the sim then the cockpit I think that high lights a growing crisis...
Gee and here I thought pilots actually flew the airplane
The entire concept of the PF as a systems manager lies at the heart of this all. When it reaches a point that your getting more actual "stick and rudder" time in the sim then the cockpit I think that high lights a growing crisis...
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This morning a passenger is quoted as saying the landing seemed normal but once it touched down, instead of braking the airplane felt like it was accelerating.
Another report of the thrust levers fully forward?
Attempt at a go-around with insufficient runway and possibly damage?
Another report of the thrust levers fully forward?
Attempt at a go-around with insufficient runway and possibly damage?