Air India Express B738 crash
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thank you CENTAURUS
I learned it from the book, "Fly the Wing" by Webb...in its latest edition. I had the honor of speaking with the author on the phone for about an hour and he was kind enough to send the latest edition to me along with some short stories (excellent science fiction which he wrote but remains unpublished).
It amazes me how much knowledge is out there, but somehow gets lost as the years go by. Even Wilbur and Orville knew of windshear, calling it Wind Fluries.
I learned it from the book, "Fly the Wing" by Webb...in its latest edition. I had the honor of speaking with the author on the phone for about an hour and he was kind enough to send the latest edition to me along with some short stories (excellent science fiction which he wrote but remains unpublished).
It amazes me how much knowledge is out there, but somehow gets lost as the years go by. Even Wilbur and Orville knew of windshear, calling it Wind Fluries.
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Centaurus,
Dont agree that FO should put gear up to force a GA.Do you really think this is safe?
GA decision rests with PIC and the FO.ATC cannot command a GA for anything other than traffic/ blocked rwy.This Indigo incident,if true,is a worrying dvelopment.Hysteria and over-reaction following Mangalore.
Dont agree that FO should put gear up to force a GA.Do you really think this is safe?
GA decision rests with PIC and the FO.ATC cannot command a GA for anything other than traffic/ blocked rwy.This Indigo incident,if true,is a worrying dvelopment.Hysteria and over-reaction following Mangalore.
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Hysteria and over-reaction following Mangalore.
So true.....
And as a result,
we are coming faster and closer
to so far unimaginable future of a
"single person cockpit"
and
probably even safer
"no persons in the cockpit"
Just computers up there...
And as a result,
we are coming faster and closer
to so far unimaginable future of a
"single person cockpit"
and
probably even safer
"no persons in the cockpit"
Just computers up there...
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Proper Go Around technique is pitch first than thrust (albeit almost simultaneously). It is NOT thrust first than fight over pitch. This is almost certainly to cause a lawn dart effect.
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Just tell the tower your going around, I can't figure out you guys who want to fight over controls or reconfigure an airplane at low altitudes. Have fun putting the gear up before flaps 15 in a 737.
I recall an article which states the captain was popular amongst fo's for allowing them to fly and being a good guy. This doesn't fit the profile of an autocratic captain who would disregard several go around calls from a first officer. This smaks of a cover up by the great Indian government.
I recall an article which states the captain was popular amongst fo's for allowing them to fly and being a good guy. This doesn't fit the profile of an autocratic captain who would disregard several go around calls from a first officer. This smaks of a cover up by the great Indian government.
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Drive 73 makes a fine point about government cover up.
perhaps the ICAO should handle ALL crash investigations and publish the transcript of the CVR to all member states.
IN this way, foreigners would know the real status of airlines without a government cover up.
perhaps the ICAO should handle ALL crash investigations and publish the transcript of the CVR to all member states.
IN this way, foreigners would know the real status of airlines without a government cover up.
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Well said leftseatview.So lets not talk the language of these dumb journos who haven't a clue what they are talking about. Everyday people are reading Crap -and it is getting to them.
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Captain Apache
Of course the Indian Government don't want a cover-up. The Captain was an expat, so they have the perfect scapegoat. Furthermore, the systemic failures in Indian aviation as described by Top Tup and others, can be ignored, yet again.
Of course the Indian Government don't want a cover-up. The Captain was an expat, so they have the perfect scapegoat. Furthermore, the systemic failures in Indian aviation as described by Top Tup and others, can be ignored, yet again.
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You think they would have found it so very tough to make a scapegoat out of an Indian Captain ? I don't think so.
I am sorry but I refuse to be so pessimistic about the outcome of this investigation.There is a lot of corruption here, but the entire system is not corrupt, like some people will make you believe.
Furthermore, the systemic failures in Indian aviation as described by Top Tup and others, can be ignored, yet again.
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Something interesting about hiring for Air India:
From: http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/fo...ia-hiring.html :
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 19:20:31 +0000 (UTC)
This is information for retired Delta pilots who might be interested in a 777 expatriate captain position with Air India. Air India is in the process of hiring 53 expatriate captains in this year (2009). They are taking delivery of 7 B777's this year. In addition they have 28 B787's on order.
The requirements are age 63 or less, B777 type rating, 100 hours PIC on the B777, having flown the aircraft in the last 7 years, and current (meaning a simulator PC in the last year, there are a couple options here).
The job pays $11,500 per month for a line captain and a little more for a check airman, instructor (TRI), or an examiner (TRE). The schedule is 3 weeks on 1 week off or 6 weeks on and two weeks off. You can be based in JFK, ORD, or possibly SFO (starting in August). There is a 12,000, 13,000, and 15,000 dollar bonus for staying with Air India for 1, 2, or 3 years respectively.
Myself (Scott Murray), Ray Bell, and Velibor Slavuj have started a company, Nightingale Aviation of North America to recruit for Air India. Ray and I primarily recruit 777 pilots in North America.
Just a little background:
Ray Bell, retired Delta Air Lines, line captain, check airman, current Air India B777 line captain, check airman, instructor, and examiner.
Scott Murray, retired Delta Air Lines, line captain, check airman, instructor, current Air India B777 line captain.
Velibor Slavuj, retired Yugoslav Airlines, line captain, director of operations, current Air India B737-800 line captain, check airman, instructor, and examiner.
We have a very strong presence in Bombay with Air India. One of our partners is in Bombay most of the time which gives us the ability to monitor the application process very closely.
If you have an interest in learning more about Air India or if you have a friend with another airline that might have an interest, feel free to contact me.
Sincerely,
…………….
From: http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/fo...ia-hiring.html :
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 19:20:31 +0000 (UTC)
This is information for retired Delta pilots who might be interested in a 777 expatriate captain position with Air India. Air India is in the process of hiring 53 expatriate captains in this year (2009). They are taking delivery of 7 B777's this year. In addition they have 28 B787's on order.
The requirements are age 63 or less, B777 type rating, 100 hours PIC on the B777, having flown the aircraft in the last 7 years, and current (meaning a simulator PC in the last year, there are a couple options here).
The job pays $11,500 per month for a line captain and a little more for a check airman, instructor (TRI), or an examiner (TRE). The schedule is 3 weeks on 1 week off or 6 weeks on and two weeks off. You can be based in JFK, ORD, or possibly SFO (starting in August). There is a 12,000, 13,000, and 15,000 dollar bonus for staying with Air India for 1, 2, or 3 years respectively.
Myself (Scott Murray), Ray Bell, and Velibor Slavuj have started a company, Nightingale Aviation of North America to recruit for Air India. Ray and I primarily recruit 777 pilots in North America.
Just a little background:
Ray Bell, retired Delta Air Lines, line captain, check airman, current Air India B777 line captain, check airman, instructor, and examiner.
Scott Murray, retired Delta Air Lines, line captain, check airman, instructor, current Air India B777 line captain.
Velibor Slavuj, retired Yugoslav Airlines, line captain, director of operations, current Air India B737-800 line captain, check airman, instructor, and examiner.
We have a very strong presence in Bombay with Air India. One of our partners is in Bombay most of the time which gives us the ability to monitor the application process very closely.
If you have an interest in learning more about Air India or if you have a friend with another airline that might have an interest, feel free to contact me.
Sincerely,
…………….
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Some discussion of AI's hard landing and go around policies in today's TOI:
IX 812 pilot was rapped for hard landing - India - The Times of India
As I commented earlier, at most U.S. carriers you worry about doing a report if you don't go around from an unstable approach but not if you do go around.
The commander of the ill-fated Air India Express flight, Capt Zlatco Glusica, had been called for a counselling session and admonished by the airline's air safety department in March for a hard landing in Thiruvananthapuram. The landing was well within the limits laid down by the aircraft manufacturer and the Directorate General of Civil Aviation.
"He was paranoid about hard landings after that. Due to the fear of being hauled up by the executive director (flight safety), Capt Glusica, like many pilots in AI Express, used to extend the flare (aircraft floating over the runway) resulting in loss of valuable runway for stopping after touchdown," revealed a senior commander. International airlines do not haul commanders for a few hard landings within the limits as it puts undue pressure on pilots.
The Air India spokesperson confirmed Capt Glusica was called for counselling for a hard landing. "As per our airline policy, if the hard landing limit values exceed, suitable action is initiated or DGCA is informed depending on the level of excess," said the spokesperson, adding the aircraft maintenance manual also stipulates that an inspection must be carried out by engineering if the limit is exceeded.
The TOI has a copy of Vg (vertical acceleration due to gravity) limits followed by AI and AI Express. For a B737 aircraft with a 1.65g landing, the pilot gets an email, for a 1.74g he is called for counselling, for 1.8g the report goes to the DGCA and only for a 2.1g landing is the aircraft sent for inspection. "Any normal landing is around 1.2 to 1.4g. The figure of 1.74g is way below manufacturer's limit. To counsel a pilot for that is to keep him in a negative frame of mind for all approaches and landings," said Capt A Ranganathan, an airsafety expert. Another shocking revelation, which, too, goes against airsafety norms followed worldwide, is Air India's policy towards go-arounds.
"In Air India and Air India Express, there is no emphasis or encouragement to pilots to do a go-around if they are doubtful about the quality of approach and the subsequent safe landing. In fact, pilots in Air India and Air India Express are petrified of a go-around as many pilots, though not all, have had to explain their action to the executive director," another commander said. "This is apart from filing an Operations Incident Report. A copy of this goes into the records maintained by the airline's air safety department and another goes to the Directorate General of Civil Aviation," says a senior commander.
Air India's Flight safety website has a list of incidents reportable to the DGCA including "discontinued approach necessitating a go-around" in it. It means, irrespective of when a go-around was initiated, it has to be reported to the DGCA.
Aviation regulators abroad and airlines like Emirates, Singapore Airlines, Korean Air, have long done away with the practice of asking their pilots to file reports on go-arounds to give them complete freedom. The AI spokesperson said the airline encourages go-arounds in case of unstabilised approach. But he did not mention anything about pilots being questioned or not questioned for go-arounds.
"He was paranoid about hard landings after that. Due to the fear of being hauled up by the executive director (flight safety), Capt Glusica, like many pilots in AI Express, used to extend the flare (aircraft floating over the runway) resulting in loss of valuable runway for stopping after touchdown," revealed a senior commander. International airlines do not haul commanders for a few hard landings within the limits as it puts undue pressure on pilots.
The Air India spokesperson confirmed Capt Glusica was called for counselling for a hard landing. "As per our airline policy, if the hard landing limit values exceed, suitable action is initiated or DGCA is informed depending on the level of excess," said the spokesperson, adding the aircraft maintenance manual also stipulates that an inspection must be carried out by engineering if the limit is exceeded.
The TOI has a copy of Vg (vertical acceleration due to gravity) limits followed by AI and AI Express. For a B737 aircraft with a 1.65g landing, the pilot gets an email, for a 1.74g he is called for counselling, for 1.8g the report goes to the DGCA and only for a 2.1g landing is the aircraft sent for inspection. "Any normal landing is around 1.2 to 1.4g. The figure of 1.74g is way below manufacturer's limit. To counsel a pilot for that is to keep him in a negative frame of mind for all approaches and landings," said Capt A Ranganathan, an airsafety expert. Another shocking revelation, which, too, goes against airsafety norms followed worldwide, is Air India's policy towards go-arounds.
"In Air India and Air India Express, there is no emphasis or encouragement to pilots to do a go-around if they are doubtful about the quality of approach and the subsequent safe landing. In fact, pilots in Air India and Air India Express are petrified of a go-around as many pilots, though not all, have had to explain their action to the executive director," another commander said. "This is apart from filing an Operations Incident Report. A copy of this goes into the records maintained by the airline's air safety department and another goes to the Directorate General of Civil Aviation," says a senior commander.
Air India's Flight safety website has a list of incidents reportable to the DGCA including "discontinued approach necessitating a go-around" in it. It means, irrespective of when a go-around was initiated, it has to be reported to the DGCA.
Aviation regulators abroad and airlines like Emirates, Singapore Airlines, Korean Air, have long done away with the practice of asking their pilots to file reports on go-arounds to give them complete freedom. The AI spokesperson said the airline encourages go-arounds in case of unstabilised approach. But he did not mention anything about pilots being questioned or not questioned for go-arounds.
As I commented earlier, at most U.S. carriers you worry about doing a report if you don't go around from an unstable approach but not if you do go around.
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You are very right...in the MD80, stall recovery is to acually pitch the nose up slightly during stick shaker and you won't lose one foot of altitude. However, proper go around technique in any jet is pitch up simultaneously adding power. To push the thrust lever forward with no pitch adjustment (as would happen without coordinating with the pilot on the stick) will not provide sufficient upward pitch movement because the engines are already generating quite a bit of thrust because of the aircraft in the full drag configuration.
As previously stated, the SAFEST response is to tell the tower that we are going around. Tower will then give go around instructions and the Captain won't want to explain on the ground why he ignored the tower's instructions.
As previously stated, the SAFEST response is to tell the tower that we are going around. Tower will then give go around instructions and the Captain won't want to explain on the ground why he ignored the tower's instructions.
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TopTup wrote:
Quicker than that, we forget how it was like to be at 175 hr or 250 hr. I guess its natural to some of us.
@drive73
No thats not a cover up, thats merely unethical and false reporting. Misuse of the right of press to protect its sources of information.
If Indian Govt or AI were this agile to start a cover-up, the AI would not have been in a mess that it is in.
Besides a cover up is staged usually to get away from an incrimination or liabilities, as the laws stands in India AIX crash is not an incriminating one, and liabilities will be very limited and will be paid by insurance firms, AIX is not even a privately held company.
So please be assured there are little chance of any cover-up in this investigation.
@protectthehornet
There is a difference between Congo and India.
@Neptunus Rex
Why would you think there exists a sufficient personal incentive to someone to ignore the systemic failures?
And, is that some one going to have sufficient control over the conduct of the investigation?
I also think that all too often (we as) Capts forget too quickly what it was like to be an FO.
@drive73
This smaks of a cover up by the great Indian government.
No thats not a cover up, thats merely unethical and false reporting. Misuse of the right of press to protect its sources of information.
If Indian Govt or AI were this agile to start a cover-up, the AI would not have been in a mess that it is in.
Besides a cover up is staged usually to get away from an incrimination or liabilities, as the laws stands in India AIX crash is not an incriminating one, and liabilities will be very limited and will be paid by insurance firms, AIX is not even a privately held company.
So please be assured there are little chance of any cover-up in this investigation.
@protectthehornet
There is a difference between Congo and India.
@Neptunus Rex
Furthermore, the systemic failures in Indian aviation as described by Top Tup and others, can be ignored, yet again.
And, is that some one going to have sufficient control over the conduct of the investigation?
Last edited by jimmygill; 1st Jun 2010 at 20:15.
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Air India is a very unsafe company with awful working practices and some people in charge who have a terrible attitude... I know I was on contract there....
However, in the Air India Express 737 SOP they make it very clear they want pilots to do a go-around... just like any western airline - however the culture on the ground is very different from what is written.
Here are a few quotes from the AIX 737 SOP manual. (If someone knows how to put a few pages out of a PDF on here let me know)
India really should of been downgraded, the DGCA is a total joke... just one look at their offices should be reason enough to downgrade them!#
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
If not stabilized, callout by “Unstabilized - Go Around”
a special briefing.
Initiate a go-around if the above criteria cannot be maintained.
However, in the Air India Express 737 SOP they make it very clear they want pilots to do a go-around... just like any western airline - however the culture on the ground is very different from what is written.
Here are a few quotes from the AIX 737 SOP manual. (If someone knows how to put a few pages out of a PDF on here let me know)
India really should of been downgraded, the DGCA is a total joke... just one look at their offices should be reason enough to downgrade them!#
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
At 1000’ AFE, callout: “Stabilised, No Flags”
If not stabilized, callout by “Unstabilized - Go Around”
If Required visual reference is confirmed,
“VISUAL, LANDING”
“VISUAL, LANDING”
or
any reason to abandon the approach,
“Go Around – Flaps 15”A/C must be in Landing configuration & stabilized by 1000 ft AFE in IMC/NIGHT and 500 ft AFE in DAY VMC.
(if NOT Go Around must be carried out)
(if NOT Go Around must be carried out)
At 1000’ AFE, callout: “Stabilised, No Flags”
If not stabilized, callout by any crew member “Unstabilized - Go Around”
If not stabilized, callout by any crew member “Unstabilized - Go Around”
•
If suitable visual reference is not established by MDA+50’/Missed approach
point, follow go around procedures.
point, follow go around procedures.
A/C must be in Landing configuration & stabilized by 1000 ft AFE in IMC/NIGHT and 500 ft AFE in DAY VMC.
(if NOT Go Around must be carried out)
(if NOT Go Around must be carried out)
At 1000’ AFE, callout: “Stabilised, No Flags”
If not stabilized, callout by any crew member “Unstabilized - Go Around”
If not stabilized, callout by any crew member “Unstabilized - Go Around”
All approaches should be stabilized by 1,000 feet AFE in IMC/NIGHT
and by 500 feet AFE in DAY VMC.
Do not attempt to land from an unstable approach.
An approach that becomes unstabilized below 1,000 feet AFE in
IMC/NIGHT or below 500 feet AFE in DAY VMC requires an immediate
go-around.
and by 500 feet AFE in DAY VMC.
Do not attempt to land from an unstable approach.
An approach that becomes unstabilized below 1,000 feet AFE in
IMC/NIGHT or below 500 feet AFE in DAY VMC requires an immediate
go-around.
ELEMENTS OF A STABILIZED APPROACH:
An approach is considered stabilized when all of the following criteria
are met:
are met:
•
The airplane is on the correct flight path.
•
Only small changes in heading and pitch are required to maintain
the correct flight path.
the correct flight path.
•
The airplane speed is not more than VREF + 20 knots indicated
airspeed and not less than VREF.
airspeed and not less than VREF.
•
The airplane is in the correct landing configuration.
•
Sink rate is no greater than 1,000 fpm; if an approach requires a
sink rate greater than 1,000 fpm, a special briefing should be
conducted
sink rate greater than 1,000 fpm, a special briefing should be
conducted
•
Thrust setting is appropriate for the airplane configuration.
•
All briefings and checklists have been conducted.
•
ILS approaches should be flown within one dot of the glideslope
and localizer, or within the expanded localizer scale.
and localizer, or within the expanded localizer scale.
•
During a circling approach, wings should be level on final when the
airplane reaches 300 feet AFE.
airplane reaches 300 feet AFE.
•
Unique approach procedures or abnormal conditions requiring a
deviation from the above elements of a stabilized approach require
deviation from the above elements of a stabilized approach require
a special briefing.
These conditions should be maintained throughout the rest of the
approach for it to be considered a stabilized approach. If the above
criteria cannot be established and maintained at and below 500 feet
AFE, initiate a go-around.
At 100 feet HAT for all visual approaches, the airplane should be
positioned so the flight deck is within, and tracking to remain within,
the lateral confines of the extended runway edges.
As the airplane crosses the runway threshold it should be:
approach for it to be considered a stabilized approach. If the above
criteria cannot be established and maintained at and below 500 feet
AFE, initiate a go-around.
At 100 feet HAT for all visual approaches, the airplane should be
positioned so the flight deck is within, and tracking to remain within,
the lateral confines of the extended runway edges.
As the airplane crosses the runway threshold it should be:
•
Stabilized on target airspeed to within + 10 knots until arresting
descent rate at flare
descent rate at flare
•
On a stabilized flight path using normal maneuvering
•
Positioned to make a normal landing in the touchdown zone (the
first 3,000 feet or first third of the runway, whichever is less).
first 3,000 feet or first third of the runway, whichever is less).
Initiate a go-around if the above criteria cannot be maintained.
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ATC paperwork
When landing in South India, Tower will ask for 'registration' (I suppose for Landing fee invoice), sometimes even on the landing roll, with speed brake & reverse configuration.
Of course all this information is available on the filed flight plan, including PIC name, and I often suggest that the ATIS request this on first contact, if really necessary.....but then again maybe I have been talking to myself.
By the way, receipt of ATIS code to TRACON or Tower seems to be optional in India as well as many other places by Indian pilots, (to be fair by too many other airlines in the Arabian gulf as well for instance)
In the event of a missed approach, (done my fair share in the monsoon seasons, although maybe elevated heart rate, have never been intimidated, control wise by ATC), ....on the subsequent landing, the tower asks for the Captain's name, and the reason for the missed approach which they presumably write down in a big register.
I have always given the same answer...."We couldn't see the runway"....
Of course all this information is available on the filed flight plan, including PIC name, and I often suggest that the ATIS request this on first contact, if really necessary.....but then again maybe I have been talking to myself.
By the way, receipt of ATIS code to TRACON or Tower seems to be optional in India as well as many other places by Indian pilots, (to be fair by too many other airlines in the Arabian gulf as well for instance)
In the event of a missed approach, (done my fair share in the monsoon seasons, although maybe elevated heart rate, have never been intimidated, control wise by ATC), ....on the subsequent landing, the tower asks for the Captain's name, and the reason for the missed approach which they presumably write down in a big register.
I have always given the same answer...."We couldn't see the runway"....