Afriqiyah Airbus 330 Crash
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 18,579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
100% - thanks for that info. As one who has not had the option to fly such an approach, 4 questions if you would?
1) It appears that although you would be 'watching' the threshold NDB on the HSI you are not really flying an 'NDB' approach. What is the SOP should this ADF needle drift off, say 10 degrees as you approach MDA? Do you follow your FMC, correct to the needle or g/a?
2) On the basis that you are not actually flying an NDB but something generally more accurate, would you use the NDB MDA or a lower and is this sort of an approach called an 'NDB ' approach?
3) There seems to be a suggestion that this approach is neither approved or used by Afriqiyah. This would appear to be the case as I cannot see any other reason for the crew to have been flying what appears to be a VOR approach which is offset. What would your airline expect on 09 at TIP?
1) It appears that although you would be 'watching' the threshold NDB on the HSI you are not really flying an 'NDB' approach. What is the SOP should this ADF needle drift off, say 10 degrees as you approach MDA? Do you follow your FMC, correct to the needle or g/a?
2) On the basis that you are not actually flying an NDB but something generally more accurate, would you use the NDB MDA or a lower and is this sort of an approach called an 'NDB ' approach?
3) There seems to be a suggestion that this approach is neither approved or used by Afriqiyah. This would appear to be the case as I cannot see any other reason for the crew to have been flying what appears to be a VOR approach which is offset. What would your airline expect on 09 at TIP?
BOAC, in the company I fly with any approach using VNAV/LNAV (and similarly on the Airbus using "managed") must be backed up by the "raw data". If the raw data shows differing information then the raw data should be followed. This obviously assumes all the raw date aids are available and coding correctly.
One for 100% on the Airbus - if the approach is in the FMGS database can you not fly the vertical profile in managed mode rather than FPA?
One for 100% on the Airbus - if the approach is in the FMGS database can you not fly the vertical profile in managed mode rather than FPA?
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Dubai - sand land.
Age: 55
Posts: 2,832
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by 411a
Quote:
If not then you should be doing all you can to change your airline's SOPs.
Negative, for one very important reason....we circle to land on a regular basis, so dive/drive keeps our guys in practise.
It would appear with this accident, that the crew was woefully unprepared for that 'stabilized approach' that seems to be favored so much, these days.
Considering this...dive/drive might actually be safer.
Shock, horror.
If not then you should be doing all you can to change your airline's SOPs.
Negative, for one very important reason....we circle to land on a regular basis, so dive/drive keeps our guys in practise.
It would appear with this accident, that the crew was woefully unprepared for that 'stabilized approach' that seems to be favored so much, these days.
Considering this...dive/drive might actually be safer.
Shock, horror.
Or maybe even Pre Cambrian!!!A stabilised approach to MDA is far more sensible than dunk slam technique - and even for a circle to land that's what we fly to MAP - if visual fly the circuit but only taking landing flap when lining up with the runway (330/340 SOP).. I for one don't really wish to be dragging 240 tonnes of 340 at maybe 400'AGL for a couple of miles - just not sane
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Arizona USA
Posts: 8,571
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
....if visual fly the circuit but only taking landing flap when lining up with the runway
Jurassic or not, if circling, a level segment must generally be flown, so, in reality straight in is no different, as flying level for short while gives the crew longer (at MDA) to look for the desired runway (not a parallel road, for example
).
Guest
Posts: n/a
looky looky and looking for it...
as flying level for short while gives the crew longer (at MDA) to look for the desired runway (not a parallel road, for example).
Would it not be enough from just before DH to decide ?
Either you see it or you do not see it....
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Dubai - sand land.
Age: 55
Posts: 2,832
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Except 411a the circling minima is usually quite a bit higher than a straight in approach - the point you seemed to have missed here. At EK the circling minima is 1000'AAL or published minima whichever is higher.. I can think of several straight in NPAs that we fly with minima below 500' and I ain't dragging a heavy jet in at that altitude!
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Arizona USA
Posts: 8,571
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
the point you seemed to have missed here.
We circle at the category D minimums (600-2) or charted, whichever are higher. 1000 AAL is many times not practical for our ops.
If one can fly a level segment at 1000 AAL, but unable to fly the same at 500 AAL for a short straight-in segment, I would suggest that said individual should not be assigned duties at the pointy end.
Would it not be enough from just before DH to decide ?
In reality, TIP is quite reasonable.
Follow the IFR procedure to the designated runway.
Pretty basic stuff.
HundredPercentPlease has explained very well how you fly this approach in an Airbus. It must be obvious even to the non experts that if the crew had flown the approach as per procedure they most likely would not have ended up as they did. We can speculate about weird and wonderful computer failures. Before we fixate on the highly unlikely why don't we revisit the most likely scenario. The crew became distracted by a medical emergency, decided to expedite landing and got behind the aircraft.
If they failed to set the correct MDA and compounded this by not switching to QNH in their focus on landing as quickly as possible they could easily have been below one hundred feet above ground rather than around 400 feet when the minimum autocallout woke them up. As a previous poster has pointed out this is a difficult situation to recover from in a 330. As the aircraft rotated rapidly into the go-around attitude the tail hit the ground hard enough to separate and the rest is history.
If they failed to set the correct MDA and compounded this by not switching to QNH in their focus on landing as quickly as possible they could easily have been below one hundred feet above ground rather than around 400 feet when the minimum autocallout woke them up. As a previous poster has pointed out this is a difficult situation to recover from in a 330. As the aircraft rotated rapidly into the go-around attitude the tail hit the ground hard enough to separate and the rest is history.
Originally Posted by BOAC
1) It appears that although you would be 'watching' the threshold NDB on the HSI you are not really flying an 'NDB' approach. What is the SOP should this ADF needle drift off, say 10 degrees as you approach MDA? Do you follow your FMC, correct to the needle or g/a?
Originally Posted by BOAC
2) On the basis that you are not actually flying an NDB but something generally more accurate, would you use the NDB MDA or a lower and is this sort of an approach called an 'NDB ' approach?
If you are using the GPS as the primary source of navigation (a GNSS approach), then there are hugely different procedures, checks, qualifications needed and so on. And there has to be a published procedure. We do a few of these at various places - Sharm for example.
Originally Posted by BOAC
3) There seems to be a suggestion that this approach is neither approved or used by Afriqiyah. This would appear to be the case as I cannot see any other reason for the crew to have been flying what appears to be a VOR approach which is offset. What would your airline expect on 09 at TIP?
At our airline we have approval and training to do managed/managed approaches (unlike Afriqiyah). I would not use the VOR as it is notammed as crap. So I would do a managed/managed (FM guided lateral and vertical) NDB using company minimums of 670'. If I didn't have good visual of a runway to make a stable landing on, then I'd initiate a go around as soon as we got to minimums.
If the approach was not in the box, then it would be selected/selected.
Originally Posted by Fireflybob
One for 100% on the Airbus - if the approach is in the FMGS database can you not fly the vertical profile in managed mode rather than FPA?
Giggy informed us in this post that They fly managed laterally and selected vertically Npa's.
---
As I mentioned before - for a working aircraft to end up at the ground you need to start at the wrong height (altimetry) or select the wrong FPA (and continue below minimums hoping to find the runway).
There are 2 things concerning me:
1) The aircraft is so good you "expect" to end up at minimums bang on the centreline with 2 white and 2 reds. If you can sort of see the ground then "it should be there somewhere"...
2) There is no published approach angle on the plate. You have to work it out (assuming it's not in the box) and arctans and fatigue do not mix well. Below is a pictorial guess/calculation at where you would hit the ground with various FPAs selected.
Mix 1) and 2) and the result could be dangerous. Remember also that you fly the approach "to get in". With no vertical guidance (height/distance checks) you would set the FPA to be slightly steeper than perfect, because it's best to arrive at MDA slightly too low for the visual segment than slightly too high.
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Phoenix, AZ USA
Age: 66
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Unfortunately all to often the answer is that the PF simply isn't. Automation is eroding aviation to the point that "stick & rudder" has been replaced with "knob & button" to a large degree. A complex and difficult undertaking requiring tremendous intuitive feel coupled with years of training for contingencies has been replaced with the ability to "plug and play". Which is great...
Right up till it's not, then we see pilots incapable of basic recovery techniques in a timely manner or incapable of unusual attitude recovery that should be considered fundamental. This is not aimed just at AB but at the entire concept of a "smart plane" over a fully trained and capable flight crew.
Right up till it's not, then we see pilots incapable of basic recovery techniques in a timely manner or incapable of unusual attitude recovery that should be considered fundamental. This is not aimed just at AB but at the entire concept of a "smart plane" over a fully trained and capable flight crew.
If you don't have a DME to allow you to fly the correct CDA, then get to the MDA ASAP, PF level off, PM eyeballs out looking. If you fly into the PAPI from below, well and good, do it and land. If you get visual too late, GA and have another go. No point in a CDA if it doesn't take you to the runway on the correct 3° slope. You've got to have a DME (or a GPS distance in lieu, or of course a FMS DB approach) to make a CDA work.
When to pull is the problem. No DME? You're only guessing.
Configure the aircraft, and just before the FAF you preselect your FPA (-2.6 degrees here) and when you want to start down you pull the knob and you will get 2.6 degrees down.
Exactly when you pull the knob is a complex subject and will vary by type, available aids and maybe some more accurate points that you can generate yourself (more accurate than a marker beacon).
You can vary your FPA on the way down to keep in line with your height/distance checks. On this NDB there are none, so you have to just maintain the rate.
Exactly when you pull the knob is a complex subject and will vary by type, available aids and maybe some more accurate points that you can generate yourself (more accurate than a marker beacon).
You can vary your FPA on the way down to keep in line with your height/distance checks. On this NDB there are none, so you have to just maintain the rate.
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Arizona USA
Posts: 8,571
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Unfortunately all to often the answer is that the PF simply isn't. Automation is eroding aviation to the point that "stick & rudder" has been replaced with "knob & button" to a large degree. A complex and difficult undertaking requiring tremendous intuitive feel coupled with years of training for contingencies has been replaced with the ability to "plug and play". Which is great...
Right up till it's not, then we see pilots incapable of basic recovery techniques in a timely manner or incapable of unusual attitude recovery that should be considered fundamental. This is not aimed just at AB but at the entire concept of a "smart plane" over a fully trained and capable flight crew.
Right up till it's not, then we see pilots incapable of basic recovery techniques in a timely manner or incapable of unusual attitude recovery that should be considered fundamental. This is not aimed just at AB but at the entire concept of a "smart plane" over a fully trained and capable flight crew.
Well said.
Originally Posted by Capn Bloggs
If you don't have a DME to allow you to fly the correct CDA, then get to the MDA ASAP, PF level off, PM eyeballs out looking. If you fly into the PAPI from below, well and good, do it and land. If you get visual too late, GA and have another go. No point in a CDA if it doesn't take you to the runway on the correct 3° slope. You've got to have a DME (or a GPS distance in lieu, or of course a FMS DB approach) to make a CDA work.
Originally Posted by Capn Bloggs
When to pull is the problem. No DME? You're only guessing.
No guessing - pull when over the beacon, as per the procedure.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Surrounded by aluminum, and the great outdoors
Posts: 3,780
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
recent CFIT data indicates that "dive-drive" NPA's account for the majority, and not suprising, most were inside the FAF, aligned with the centerline, and just came up short..hence the trend towards CANPA's with modern airliners...an also be done in steam gauge airplanes quite well...even in Arizona!!!
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Dubai - sand land.
Age: 55
Posts: 2,832
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by 411a
If one can fly a level segment at 1000 AAL, but unable to fly the same at 500 AAL for a short straight-in segment, I would suggest that said individual should not be assigned duties at the pointy end.
Obviously your version of AZ English is different from my English (original by the way old fellow)
If one is dirty diving still after all the evidence shows that it causes lots of prangs I suggest that that someone should be thinking about hanging up the electric hat and going into rose growing (or cactii)
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: A quiet backwater
Posts: 69
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Wow. Somebody thinks you might need to be able to actually fly. What a shocking idea. Fly meaning the autopilot/throttles are off, the FDs aren't on etc. I have recently been with the limp-wristed-and-never-had-a-real-job-incompetent-though-filled-with-righteous-entitlement with 400 hours total time and already in an intercontinental jet set (whoopeee) for a while. I guess this is what this toxic industry is coming to. I thank those who think you might someday need some chops.
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Arizona USA
Posts: 8,571
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have recently been with the limp-wristed-and-never-had-a-real-job-incompetent-though-filled-with-righteous-entitlement with 400 hours total time and already in an intercontinental jet set (whoopeee) for a while.
After awhile, they usually come around..
hopefully
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Republic of Tejas
Posts: 44
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
100PP,
There has been a lot of discussion about automation, but the last time I checked one of the largest US airlines handflies all approaches including CAT3A using the HUD. It is my understanding that handflying is part of their culture.
BS
No use to us who fly for airlines who prohibit the "Arizona approach". CDFA is the norm now, outside of Arizona.
BS
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Republic of Tejas
Posts: 44
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
411A,
I wonder how they feel about circling approaches where base is downwind?
BS
In these cases, 'gear up and shut up' works wonders.
After awhile, they usually come around..
hopefully
After awhile, they usually come around..
hopefully
BS