Afriqiyah Airbus 330 Crash
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hundredpercentplease
Almost correct. In fact it's the Flap LEVER position that triggers the G/A mode - regardless of whether you actually have flaps out or not. This is to ensure G/A Mode is available in the event of a G/A from a Flapless landing.
If the pilot doesn't go into TOGA thrust he doesn't get any G/A command, the Autoflight system remains in the appproach mode and if you raise the gear on a G/A in this situation you'll get a "Too Low Gear" warning from the GPWS as it still thinks you want to land. (Oh, in addition you'll lose the whole flight plan from the FMGS but all Airbus pilots know that - or do they?) See Australian report of a Jetstar close shave in MEL or PTH a few years ago when TOGA wasn't selected at minimums.
PJ2
Excellent analysis as usual - thanks.
However, you do need to make a positive rotation into the G/A attitude even though there is a pitch up couple with TOGA thrust.
Almost correct. In fact it's the Flap LEVER position that triggers the G/A mode - regardless of whether you actually have flaps out or not. This is to ensure G/A Mode is available in the event of a G/A from a Flapless landing.
If the pilot doesn't go into TOGA thrust he doesn't get any G/A command, the Autoflight system remains in the appproach mode and if you raise the gear on a G/A in this situation you'll get a "Too Low Gear" warning from the GPWS as it still thinks you want to land. (Oh, in addition you'll lose the whole flight plan from the FMGS but all Airbus pilots know that - or do they?) See Australian report of a Jetstar close shave in MEL or PTH a few years ago when TOGA wasn't selected at minimums.
PJ2
Excellent analysis as usual - thanks.
However, you do need to make a positive rotation into the G/A attitude even though there is a pitch up couple with TOGA thrust.
Originally Posted by Jim Croche
hundredpercentplease
Almost correct. In fact it's the Flap LEVER position that triggers the G/A mode - regardless of whether you actually have flaps out or not. This is to ensure G/A Mode is available in the event of a G/A from a Flapless landing.
Almost correct. In fact it's the Flap LEVER position that triggers the G/A mode - regardless of whether you actually have flaps out or not. This is to ensure G/A Mode is available in the event of a G/A from a Flapless landing.
Almost correct. I was explaining to someone who had no idea about the Airbus, so kept it loose and understandable. I am well aware of the conditions required to engage SRS in a go around, including the conditions you omitted.
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For obvious reasons the accident currently has a high profile in the Dutch news media, talk of the day & politics.
On the Dutch national 10-o' clock news tonight - NOS Journal,
Their correspondent on location in Tripoli reported that after the initial media free for all, Libyan officials have clamped down on the foreign press in recent days who are now very restricted in their ability to interview locals (eg: no longer allowed apparently) & freely collect information. The only officially permitted press action today (Saturday) was the awful media scrum surrounding the medivac flight of the sole survivor being repatriated to Holland.
According to the NOS correspondent Menno Reemeijer (the Dutch 'Anderson Cooper'), there is now a team of 25 Dutch forensic specialists in Tripoli to assist in victim identification. Additionally he reported that the foreign members of the crash investigation team allegedly spent the day having some sort of 'internal discussion'.
Menno Reemeijer t w i t t e r feed: menno reemeijer (mennoreemeijer) on Twitter
NOS report from Tripoli Sat May 15
NOS Nieuws - Verslaggever Menno Reemeijer vanaf vliegveld Tripoli (17.11 u)
On the Dutch national 10-o' clock news tonight - NOS Journal,
Their correspondent on location in Tripoli reported that after the initial media free for all, Libyan officials have clamped down on the foreign press in recent days who are now very restricted in their ability to interview locals (eg: no longer allowed apparently) & freely collect information. The only officially permitted press action today (Saturday) was the awful media scrum surrounding the medivac flight of the sole survivor being repatriated to Holland.
According to the NOS correspondent Menno Reemeijer (the Dutch 'Anderson Cooper'), there is now a team of 25 Dutch forensic specialists in Tripoli to assist in victim identification. Additionally he reported that the foreign members of the crash investigation team allegedly spent the day having some sort of 'internal discussion'.
Menno Reemeijer t w i t t e r feed: menno reemeijer (mennoreemeijer) on Twitter
NOS report from Tripoli Sat May 15
NOS Nieuws - Verslaggever Menno Reemeijer vanaf vliegveld Tripoli (17.11 u)
Last edited by STC-8; 16th May 2010 at 03:55. Reason: Improved clarity
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Runway 09 at TIP is served by a very accurate NDB approach...two beacons as I recall.
Now there is an oxymoron, if I ever heard one !!
Anyway, surely one would be concentrating more on the GPS computed ND track, rather than relying on a twitching NDB. Gave up flying DC3s ages ago.
.
Last edited by silverstrata; 15th May 2010 at 23:54.
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Am not a pilot but am an architect and the site of the mosque gives some indication of the type of ground in that area. It's unlikely that you would build anything on deep or shiffting sand. It's very costly to pile so it would not suprise me to find out that the sand in that area has a max depth of about one metre and could be a lot less. Underneath that there could be rock, clay etc. I would think that the water table will be way below the harder sub layer so even if this layer is clay it would have a good load bearing capacity.
Of course the level of sand to the level of the sub layer will vary over the whole of the crash site and may even get near the surface at some points.
All the above comments are just based on the photographs.
Nick
Of course the level of sand to the level of the sub layer will vary over the whole of the crash site and may even get near the surface at some points.
All the above comments are just based on the photographs.
Nick
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Silver..a properly executed non precision approach should not be an issue for professional pilot period...i will not get into all the what if but. If you have a glass cockpit it makes it like shooting ducks in a barrel. I have my own speculation and will wait till at least the preliminary report comes out. This blaming the ATC guy and airport is a bit much..there is only one captain in the cockpit...
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Anyway, surely one would be concentrating more on the GPS computed ND track, rather than relying on a twitching NDB.
Throw in a little map shift, or an incorrect waypoint, and it all goes in the poo.
By the way, I have operated to TIP since 1971, so know the area, and the airport, quite well.
The NDB's are very accurate...the TIP VOR, much less so.
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PJ2
Just to clarify - it is the thrust levers in TOGA which activate the go-around phase, however you have to have at least Flaps1 selected. If the flap handle is at zero, you will merely get GA thrust but no SRS or flight plan resequence.
Cheers
Just to clarify - it is the thrust levers in TOGA which activate the go-around phase, however you have to have at least Flaps1 selected. If the flap handle is at zero, you will merely get GA thrust but no SRS or flight plan resequence.
Cheers
The NDB's are very accurate...the TIP VOR, much less so.
A non-precision approach, as has been suggested numerous times, is as easy as flying an ILS providing the system is GPS-updated and the nav accuracy is RNP 0.3 or better on the PROG page. Given the age of the aircraft these two requirements would not be an issue.
For these kinds of systems, an NDB/VOR/DME or LOC-only approach is no longer a dive-and-drive cloud-breaking procedure but a reliable electronic approach which should be as stable as an ILS. Except in name and legal requirments to use the appropriate approach plate, with the required RNP it is essentially an RNAV/GPS approach.
With minor variations (timing/groundspeeds/winds, knowledge/training of optical and somatogravic illusions, use of the map, adherence to minima), the visual approach however, hasn't changed since the beginning of aviation.
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/may/16/africa-plane-crash-record
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From CNN.
CNN) -- Low visibility caused by mist and sand created poor flying conditions for the pilot of an Afriqiyah Airways flight that crashed just before landing in Tripoli, Libyan sources with knowledge of the investigation said Saturday. The plane, an Airbus A330-200, originated in Johannesburg, South Africa, and was at the end of its nearly nine-hour flight when it crashed Wednesday. All but one of the 104 passengers on board were killed.
The sources said that as the pilot approached Tripoli International Airport, he took the plane off auto-pilot hoping to manually land the aircraft. He realized he was in trouble and tried to pull the plane up and turn the auto-pilot back on to give it another try, the sources said.
But the effort was too late and the plane slammed violently into the ground, explaining the condition of the wreckage and damage to the plane's tail at the crash site, the sources said.
An investigation into the crash is under way, and authorities are reviewing the aircraft's flight data recorder.
Meanwhile Ruben van Assouw, the 9-year-old sole survivor of the plane crash, has returned home to the Netherlands.
He suffered multiple fractures to his legs and underwent surgery at Al Khadra Hospital, said a doctor at the hospital who declined to give her name.
Both of Ruben's parents and a brother were killed in the crash, a Dutch foreign ministry representative said.
Ruben's family issued a statement Friday expressing gratitude to people who have helped them, such as Libyan hospital professionals and Dutch envoys, as well as the outpourings of sympathy from citizens in both countries.
The family also thanked "the vast majority of the Dutch media for respecting our privacy."
The family, which will raise Ruben, said the boy knows that his parents and brother were killed.
"Considering the circumstances, Ruben is doing fine. He is sleeping a lot; now and then he wakes up and is then lucid," the family said in the statement. "He has drunk a little, and has seen the flowers and cuddly toys."
Ruben's family said it has to deal with "two kinds of grief" -- the sorrow the boy is enduring and the sadness over the loss of the other family members.
"The coming period will be very difficult for us," the family said. "We hope that all the media will respect our privacy."
More than two-thirds of the passengers killed in the plane crash were Dutch, the ministry said.
Passengers from Libya, South Africa, Belgium, Austria, Germany, France, Zimbabwe and Britain were also among the victims, the airline said on its Web site. The Dutch foreign ministry said Friday it is sending more experts to Tripoli to help Libyan authorities and Dutch colleagues identify the victims.
CNN) -- Low visibility caused by mist and sand created poor flying conditions for the pilot of an Afriqiyah Airways flight that crashed just before landing in Tripoli, Libyan sources with knowledge of the investigation said Saturday. The plane, an Airbus A330-200, originated in Johannesburg, South Africa, and was at the end of its nearly nine-hour flight when it crashed Wednesday. All but one of the 104 passengers on board were killed.
The sources said that as the pilot approached Tripoli International Airport, he took the plane off auto-pilot hoping to manually land the aircraft. He realized he was in trouble and tried to pull the plane up and turn the auto-pilot back on to give it another try, the sources said.
But the effort was too late and the plane slammed violently into the ground, explaining the condition of the wreckage and damage to the plane's tail at the crash site, the sources said.
An investigation into the crash is under way, and authorities are reviewing the aircraft's flight data recorder.
Meanwhile Ruben van Assouw, the 9-year-old sole survivor of the plane crash, has returned home to the Netherlands.
He suffered multiple fractures to his legs and underwent surgery at Al Khadra Hospital, said a doctor at the hospital who declined to give her name.
Both of Ruben's parents and a brother were killed in the crash, a Dutch foreign ministry representative said.
Ruben's family issued a statement Friday expressing gratitude to people who have helped them, such as Libyan hospital professionals and Dutch envoys, as well as the outpourings of sympathy from citizens in both countries.
The family also thanked "the vast majority of the Dutch media for respecting our privacy."
The family, which will raise Ruben, said the boy knows that his parents and brother were killed.
"Considering the circumstances, Ruben is doing fine. He is sleeping a lot; now and then he wakes up and is then lucid," the family said in the statement. "He has drunk a little, and has seen the flowers and cuddly toys."
Ruben's family said it has to deal with "two kinds of grief" -- the sorrow the boy is enduring and the sadness over the loss of the other family members.
"The coming period will be very difficult for us," the family said. "We hope that all the media will respect our privacy."
More than two-thirds of the passengers killed in the plane crash were Dutch, the ministry said.
Passengers from Libya, South Africa, Belgium, Austria, Germany, France, Zimbabwe and Britain were also among the victims, the airline said on its Web site. The Dutch foreign ministry said Friday it is sending more experts to Tripoli to help Libyan authorities and Dutch colleagues identify the victims.
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Can anyone identify exactly what kind of damage this aircraft suffered earlier in the month that resulted in it being out of action for days and stuck in the SAA Technical hangar in Joburg?
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The key here is however, although these navaids are required to execute the published approach, neither the NDB's nor the VOR are required by the A330 for an accurate non-precision with a set 3deg electronic glideslope.
Honeywell HT9100 units are indeed very accurate, as I expect the equipment is in the A330.
I fly to TIP on a regular basis, and find that the NDB approach to 09 equally as accurate...it really is dead simple, provided of course that the pilots are properly trained.
The 'dirty dive' toward the runway however, is to be avoided at all costs, with a heavy jet....and yes, I've flown these in command for well over thirty years.
Did this happen here?
I expect we will know in short order.
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Tail Cone and Wires
In one of the pictures from the Dutch media the tail cone appears to be wrapped in a wire. That wire looks like the ones I saw yesterday around the power line poles down before the impact point. 4 poles are down from 250 meters from impact.
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Jetjock330 quoted CNN:
I speculate that the city and runway environment might have been visible from very far, making the pilots think they were going to execute a visual approach. I believe that the pilot on a last-minute, manual, raw data, non-precision VOR approach in bad visibility, descended below the legal minimum of 550 foot to 'take a look because it didn't look so bad from above' and was too late with his go-around.
First rule of instrument flying: do not descend below minima how tempting it may be to get home after a long flight. No runway in sight at minimum: go-around - don't wait. I believe he did go below and waited, and we can see the terrible result. Remember: at minima he only had 288 feet height left to execute his go-around. As I argued before: this is not a lot.
Niner Mike.
The sources said that as the pilot approached Tripoli International Airport, he took the plane off auto-pilot hoping to manually land the aircraft. He realized he was in trouble and tried to pull the plane up and turn the auto-pilot back on to give it another try, the sources said.
But the effort was too late and the plane slammed violently into the ground, explaining the condition of the wreckage and damage to the plane's tail at the crash site, the sources said.
But the effort was too late and the plane slammed violently into the ground, explaining the condition of the wreckage and damage to the plane's tail at the crash site, the sources said.
First rule of instrument flying: do not descend below minima how tempting it may be to get home after a long flight. No runway in sight at minimum: go-around - don't wait. I believe he did go below and waited, and we can see the terrible result. Remember: at minima he only had 288 feet height left to execute his go-around. As I argued before: this is not a lot.
Niner Mike.
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Based on all the contributions so far and on my visit to the site yesterday, my opinion is that the tail cone hit the power line some 250 meters before impact, dragging 4 poles down, possibly with relative high AOA. At impact point a clear impression of the tail cone is the first visible mark. Left and right of this mark there are two lines of cactus perpendicular to the flight path which are cut parallel to the terrain by the horizontal stabilizers. From there on the field of debris begins. The tail section separated and summersaulted, as has been suggested before.
Methinks that statement about aeroplane being hand flown during final app did not come out of the thin air but rather that it implies that at least DFDR or QAR have been read out, that we'll know in a couple of weeks what was the speed, attitude, configuration and flight path of the aeroplane, what were the engines doing, what was the status of AP/FD/ATHR, what command inputs were made by whom, etc. I've got a hunch that IAW Sturgeon's law, preliminary report (or even more preliminary leaks) will make large part of this thread obsolete. Not all of it, mind you. Wheat to chaff ratio in this thread is unusually high for PPRuNe.
Those statistics worshipers, lumping the Libya together with the rest of the Africa, could do a lot worse then checking here before posting: ASN's list of aviation safety related occurrences in Libya. While we're at ASN, there's also similar list for A330.
I have used term "statistics worshipers" advisedly; statistic is a wonderful tool, yet as any tool it has its uses and limitations. Those most loudly piping about the significance of statistics are often unaware of either.
Those statistics worshipers, lumping the Libya together with the rest of the Africa, could do a lot worse then checking here before posting: ASN's list of aviation safety related occurrences in Libya. While we're at ASN, there's also similar list for A330.
I have used term "statistics worshipers" advisedly; statistic is a wonderful tool, yet as any tool it has its uses and limitations. Those most loudly piping about the significance of statistics are often unaware of either.
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Pitching moment
Can somebody verify what happens to the aerodynamics when you lose the horizontal stabilizer in a go-around?
As far as I understand the plane is initially in approach trim with lots of nose-up trim to balance the negative (nose-down) pitching moment added by the flaps and slats. At a normal go-around the engine thrust causes a nose-up pitching moment which is cancelled out by the Airbus's automatic retrim, so the pilots just uses normal stick forces to establish a proper climbing attitude.
The question is when now the tail hits and the stabilizer separates: Will the now tailless wing's negative pitching moment overpower the nose-up pitching moment of the engine thrust? If so, the result would be a quick nosedive into the ground, consistent with the destruction we see. If not, we would get a stall and then a nosedive somewhat later. Which one happened here?
As far as I understand the plane is initially in approach trim with lots of nose-up trim to balance the negative (nose-down) pitching moment added by the flaps and slats. At a normal go-around the engine thrust causes a nose-up pitching moment which is cancelled out by the Airbus's automatic retrim, so the pilots just uses normal stick forces to establish a proper climbing attitude.
The question is when now the tail hits and the stabilizer separates: Will the now tailless wing's negative pitching moment overpower the nose-up pitching moment of the engine thrust? If so, the result would be a quick nosedive into the ground, consistent with the destruction we see. If not, we would get a stall and then a nosedive somewhat later. Which one happened here?