Afriqiyah Airbus 330 Crash
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Without starting the age ole Airbus debate questions need to be answered real fast with the A330 there have been at least 4 incidents and two total losses in the last year alone can anyone really say it's all just bad luck ......................no other airframe has had such a run of bad " luck" in such short succession..........
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C-Sar
Could you comment on the posting #450 where there is a link to an NRC article (reliable newspaper) regarding a house that was hit and partly caved in?
Have you seen this house?
Others,
Is it at al possible that hitting the roof would lead to a break off of the tail resulting in the 20 degrees pitch down the Alitalia crew reported?
Thx
BvH
Could you comment on the posting #450 where there is a link to an NRC article (reliable newspaper) regarding a house that was hit and partly caved in?
Have you seen this house?
Others,
Is it at al possible that hitting the roof would lead to a break off of the tail resulting in the 20 degrees pitch down the Alitalia crew reported?
Thx
BvH
Without starting the age ole Airbus debate questions need to be answered real fast with the A330 there have been at least 4 incidents and two total losses in the last year alone can anyone really say it's all just bad luck
Comparing them closely reveals which pattern exactly ?
Oh yes: It's an Airbus
And it crashed.
That's about it.
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"And among these 'incidents' we have passenger threats, terrorist attacks, possible CFIT"
Regardless...why not the same with all other aircraft type ? so many in such a short space of time ? doesnt take a genius to see something is wrong somewhere indeed you cannot factor in foolishness and human error with many events seeming unrelated, still the fact remains this aircraft has been involved in way too many serious and indeed fatal events in such short succession not to warrant a good hard sobering look ......Perhaps training is not sufficient or some pilots are becomming lazy with all the so-called idiot proof systems in the A330 ,however the facts cannot be ignored. Murphys law ? maybe with one or two incidents personally i think we are way beyond even Murphy now
Regardless...why not the same with all other aircraft type ? so many in such a short space of time ? doesnt take a genius to see something is wrong somewhere indeed you cannot factor in foolishness and human error with many events seeming unrelated, still the fact remains this aircraft has been involved in way too many serious and indeed fatal events in such short succession not to warrant a good hard sobering look ......Perhaps training is not sufficient or some pilots are becomming lazy with all the so-called idiot proof systems in the A330 ,however the facts cannot be ignored. Murphys law ? maybe with one or two incidents personally i think we are way beyond even Murphy now
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"Is it at al possible that hitting the roof would lead to a break off of the tail resulting in the 20 degrees pitch down the Alitalia crew reported?"
This, of course, depends on the roof but is easy to roughly estimate: if you approximate a collision with a roof as trying to accelerate that roof over the size of the tail to its speed (this is the case if the roof is weak) you get, for a speed of 70 m/s and a roof of 1 ton and a tail of 5 m a collision time of 5/70= ~0.07 sec. A very rough estimate for the force is then 1000*70/.07 = 1 million Newton = 100 tonnes. A roof can do serious damage.
This, of course, depends on the roof but is easy to roughly estimate: if you approximate a collision with a roof as trying to accelerate that roof over the size of the tail to its speed (this is the case if the roof is weak) you get, for a speed of 70 m/s and a roof of 1 ton and a tail of 5 m a collision time of 5/70= ~0.07 sec. A very rough estimate for the force is then 1000*70/.07 = 1 million Newton = 100 tonnes. A roof can do serious damage.
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paweas, In fact, there was a another (even widebody!) airframe with 2x hull losses last year. If you are intending to post a flame with statistics as background it would make sense to check that your claim (no other airframe..) is true.
I shall leave figuring out which airframe as homework..
I shall leave figuring out which airframe as homework..
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A330 Go-Arounds
We routinely practice Go-Arounds from 50 feet above the runway both with A/P on or off. With A/P on it's a walk in the park as the rotation is managed by the auto-pilot and very little height is lost althought the airplane may touch down briefly.
With the A/P off its not much different except you manually rotate the aircraft to the G/A attitude. Once you have 100 AGL you can renengage the A/P.
I should say that this maneuver is usually accompanied by a loss in thrust of one engine just to make it as difficult as possible but even on one engine at heavy weight and high temperature the aircraft can go around from very low altitude safely.
Chico
PS I am not saying this is what this crew should or could have done since we really just speculating here.
With the A/P off its not much different except you manually rotate the aircraft to the G/A attitude. Once you have 100 AGL you can renengage the A/P.
I should say that this maneuver is usually accompanied by a loss in thrust of one engine just to make it as difficult as possible but even on one engine at heavy weight and high temperature the aircraft can go around from very low altitude safely.
Chico
PS I am not saying this is what this crew should or could have done since we really just speculating here.
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paweas, instead of loosely associating maybe you should read an elementary statistics book, Poisson distribution and such. Then you can make useful calculations such as: if plane X has an incident on average once a year, what is the chance that in a given year it has 2 incidents?
Maybe I have missed same on this thread but I see little reference to the concept of an approach gate. Many operators use 1,000 ft IMC and 500 ft VMC.
If the approach is stable, configured, on centreline/glidepath etc, engines spooled up, on target speed +/- margins then the approach may be continued. If not a Go Around is mandatory.
If the approach is stable, configured, on centreline/glidepath etc, engines spooled up, on target speed +/- margins then the approach may be continued. If not a Go Around is mandatory.
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Can someone tell me if you can post audio to this forum?
If so I have some audio I would like to post of HLLT ATC just days before the crash instructing aircraft to conduct the locator 09 app, even though it had been reported to them to be U/S.
Also offering the VOR again NOTAM'd to be unusable... The audio has already been sent to EASA... before the crash as the locals were unwilling to do anything about this mess that is called Tripoli International!
PT6A
If so I have some audio I would like to post of HLLT ATC just days before the crash instructing aircraft to conduct the locator 09 app, even though it had been reported to them to be U/S.
Also offering the VOR again NOTAM'd to be unusable... The audio has already been sent to EASA... before the crash as the locals were unwilling to do anything about this mess that is called Tripoli International!
PT6A
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A4
Would the wire rapped around the end cone corroborate the kind of AOA you are suggesting?
Would the wire rapped around the end cone corroborate the kind of AOA you are suggesting?
.
snowfalcon2;
Regarding loss of the tail-section, the report on the MK Airlines B747 accident at Halifax may be relevant to your question. This was yet another accident in which an incorrect takeoff weight was used to calculate power and speeds. The aircraft struck (literally brushed) a cement burm at the button of 06, removing the entire tail section. The aircraft nosed in almost immediately.
Crew fatigue was discussed as one of the factors; design of the software of the EFB another, and so on. PJ2
Regarding loss of the tail-section, the report on the MK Airlines B747 accident at Halifax may be relevant to your question. This was yet another accident in which an incorrect takeoff weight was used to calculate power and speeds. The aircraft struck (literally brushed) a cement burm at the button of 06, removing the entire tail section. The aircraft nosed in almost immediately.
Crew fatigue was discussed as one of the factors; design of the software of the EFB another, and so on. PJ2
Can someone tell me if you can post audio to this forum?
Is the audio a WAV file or a link to something on the web? If it is a file you could upload it to YouTube then it would be linkable. I don't think you can embed a raw file directly. Obviously if it is already on the web somewhere then it's linkable.
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vanHorck said:
C-Sar
Could you comment on the posting #450 where there is a link to an NRC article (reliable newspaper) regarding a house that was hit and partly caved in?
Have you seen this house?
Could you comment on the posting #450 where there is a link to an NRC article (reliable newspaper) regarding a house that was hit and partly caved in?
Have you seen this house?
To all, just a bit more patience, I am working with some of the group to post the pictures.
Giorgio
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Another issue that I picked from the italian forum, it seems that the alitalia flight that departs at 0605 was at holding point for 09 and saw the crash. APPARENTLY they said they saw the aircraft impacting nose first 20 to 30 degrees nose down....
That would be easy to verify. And very relevant. Any more info?
(Maybe a link to the forum)
BTW, anyone know the QNH? Didn't hear that scenario yet!
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Some of you still don't get it pure and simple!!!!!
NOT a go around prang - but CFIT trying to find the runway........ Believe it or not but I would never have ever let my family or myself fly on an Afriqiyah or Libyan Arab Airlines aeroplane ever Even before this
NOT a go around prang - but CFIT trying to find the runway........ Believe it or not but I would never have ever let my family or myself fly on an Afriqiyah or Libyan Arab Airlines aeroplane ever
Even before this
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Originally Posted by C-SAR
vanHorck, I read the article and, in my opinion, the house is the little shack next to the mosque, to the west of it along the road. This house is already after the impact point, so no surprise that it was showered by debris, but it is not in the line of travel (it is to the right of the path) and as I said AFTER the first impact point. The power line was hit before the impact point.
What the electrical pole arrachment story is telling is that the aircraft was already below 30 ft a couple of hundreds meter before the first impact, which was still a very long way before reaching the runway.