Afriqiyah Airbus 330 Crash

[rgbrock1]

PJ2:

Would the debris pattern exhibited by the A330 test flight accident in Toulouse in 1994 resemble the current one? The reason I ask is because the former accident happened shortly after take-off whereas the latter happened during finals.

[wingview]

I stopped reading this (about the article in the NRC):

Why this plane disintegrated in mid-air shortly before landing remains a mystery.

What I did see was a burnt left wing today on the Dutch TV. It looked pretty much intact. Can't find it anymore on theire site (which is a pitty because I can't recall the flap setting).

[Sober Lark]

Quite a bit of nasty politics from some posters.

If it was unsafe, if the pilots etc etc, Catlin brokered through AON would never have touched it let alone insure it for $130,000,000.

[nugpot]

One thing I might add (and ask of others here) is, what did the wreckage pattern look like of the A330 flight test stall accident at Toulouse? Are there aerial photos available?

PJ2,

We still have not seen a picture of the complete wreckage trail, so it does not really help to compare it with previous accidents, but here is a picture of the accident in which the Polish president died a short while ago. Also apparently CFIT during approach. http://bi.gazeta.pl/im/3/7765/m7765863.jpg

You will know that the length of the wreckage trail is dependent on the combined forward and downward vector. A high speed accident with a large vertical component can leave a shorter trail than a low speed accident with a small vertical component. It is also a factor of the ground composition, obstacles and obviously the behaviour of the a/c structure during the impact sequence..

[Nickdj]

left and right wing

From the NOVA video i put together some screenshots showing the left wing and right wing. Cant really make out the flap selection.

[takata]

Originally Posted by PJ2

One thing I might add (and ask of others here) is, what did the wreckage pattern look like of the A330 flight test stall accident at Toulouse? Are there aerial photos available?.

I don't have pictures of it but I've got the report description of the wreck which is pretty short:

Impact was near Blagnac Airport's runway.
First contact was made with left wing.
Wreckage pattern was about 180 m divided in four main groups after impact point:
1. vertical stab, APU and rear cabin near impact;
2. left wing, left LG, middle cabin at the center of wreckage zone;
3. left engine, front cabin and cockpit;
4. right wing and right engine.

In French:

1.12 - Epave:
L'épave est dispersée au sol sur un terrain situé en bordure ouest de l'aéroport de Toulouse-Blagnac. L'altitude du lieu de l'accident est de 499 pieds, ses coordonnées géographiques sont 43°38,10 Nord, 01°21,50 Est.

Le premier impact avec le sol a été effectué par la voilure gauche. Des pièces et des débris de l'avion jonchent le sol sur une longueur de 180 mètres environ. L'épave est divisée en quatre parties principales au-delà du point d'impact:

- dérive verticale, APU et fuselage arrière à proximité du point de l'impact avec le sol,
- aile gauche et jambe de train gauche au centre de l'épave,
- moteur gauche, fuselage avant comportant le poste de pilotage,
- aile droite et moteur droit.

S~
Olivier

[PJ2]

takata, thanks very much. I thought later of the Nagoya accident as well.

rgbrock1;

Would the debris pattern exhibited by the A330 test flight accident in Toulouse in 1994 resemble the current one?

Not sure; yes, one was at takeoff, this one on approach.

I ask because the wreckage pattern is so much at odds with an approach accident, (Learmont has observed this as have others) that resolving the question may lead further "upstream" in terms of causal factors. The example of the Turkish B737 has been used here.

The Toulouse accident was not a high-speed one but it would have been high-energy with very high fragmentation, just as the Nagoya A300 accident was.

The photo of the Nagoya accident site illustrates what I mean:




Obviously it would be helpful to have aerial photographs of the entire scene, from first impact, to the runway fences.

I'm not speculating on or pointing to cause or even what happened yet as there is no information to do so, but I am trying to resolve the question of the nature of the accident site which looks like a high-speed impact but which doesn't square with the phase of flight.

PJ2

[jjeppson]

VOR minimums

What are the minimums for the VOR approach to Rwy 09 ? Is the approach aligned with the runway or offset?

Does anyone know what procedures this airline uses for non-precision (non-ILS) approaches? Many operators are still using the "dive and drive" method while many have adopted the constant rate descent method with a go around at MDA.

I am curious how radar reports say the aircraft never descended below MDA yet it impacted the ground? Something doesn't add up.

I hope the DFDR data solves the mystery so others can learn from it.

jj

[James7]

C-SAR

Coming home, I know my base.
Lets' land on 09, I know my procedure.
Weather is not too bad (2000-5000 viz reported)
Shoot the procedure, all ok
Then at MDA look out and... the runway is not where it is supposed to be!! - Instead there is a white wall of mist and the sun blinding me...
A moment hesitation... decide to go around.... but too late

Yep, have to agree with this. TOGA selected but no transition to the Vertical hence the debris spread far and wide. Dirty windscreen would exacerbate the problem. Faced the same met conditions a few times going into Tripoli.

Aircraft following went around and landed on rwy 27 and only just got in at minimas.

[UNCTUOUS]

That Upslope Factor - a Precedent

If they banged a wing-tip trying to line up on the centre-line,*they'd have instantly*known about it and cobbed the power to TOGA. However all that would have done was guarantee the cataclysmic extent of the cart-wheeling breakup..... as can be seen from the extent of the wreckage shattering. When the Alitalia crew first saw them looming out of the mist on finals they were banked and in a severely nose down attitude - about to hit in the underrun. That's about what you'd expect from a wing-tip contacting ground or an obstacle.... induced yaw. I had the dubious pleasure in 1973 of watching someone catch a wing spoiler on high tension lines and then a wingtip on the ground and cartwheel..... in my Phoebus C. The pilot's knees were driven past his ears as the nose concertina'd and the canopy was ejected. That sort of fore-aft crumple of nose and fuselage was exactly what happened to this A330-200.
*
It's vaguely similar to the 2001 Aspen Colorado bizjet crash. .... where the upslope on runway 15 was 2% and was the factor that would've induced the visual illusion and got them down low on late finals whilst maneuvering to line up (per what likely occurred at Tripoli). It's a deadly trap.


The Aspen Gulfstream Crash
ASN Aircraft accident Gulfstream Aerospace G-1159 Gulfstream III N303GA Aspen Airport, CO (ASE)

On March 29, 2001, a Gulfstream III bizjet crashed on approach to the airport at Aspen, Colo., killing all 15 passengers and three crew members aboard. ...
The Aspen Gulfstream Crash
*

2001 Avjet Aspen crash - Wikipedia
The 2001 Avjet Aspen crash occurred on March 29, 2001 when a chartered Avjet Corporation Gulfstream III business jet, registration N303GA, crashed into ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_Avjet_Aspen_crash

Runway 15's 2% upslope:
http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/1005/05889VDGC.PDF
*
Runway 15 (the Aspen accident runway) has a quite significant 2% UPSLOPE - i.e. leading to the same type of illusion (and low approach once visual off the VOR NPA) as in Tripoli.
*
Looks like the NTSB missed that vital element for the Aspen crash cause.

[takata]

Originally Posted by PJ2

The Toulouse accident was not a high-speed one but it would have been high-energy with very high fragmentation, just as the Nagoya A300 accident was.

High (horizontal) energy is the clue. That is why I'm suspecting that she wasn't actually landing (descelerating) but accelerating because of its failed approach, while being too low and hit some obstacles on its way (buildings, electric lignes/poles or trees). Another clue is about undercarriage, which seems fairly well cut clear on some pics. And last, the rotation and damages of the tailfin tip. To be noted also, there is some vegetation trapped on the leading edge of the vertical stab visible on some pics.
S~
Olivier

[lomapaseo]

I'm not speculating on or pointing to cause or even what happened yet as there is no information to do so, but I am trying to resolve the question of the nature of the accident site which looks like a high-speed impact but which doesn't square with the phase of flight.

One needs to parse these kinds of questions down between energy and speed to get a hint as to how the aircraft impacted the ground from a flight regime.

The best way to do this is to look at the vectors of the impact.

Considering a ground contact from a flight on approach or go-arround the questions are nose up or nose down? High velocity forward vs vertical velocity down and of course roll if any.

I haven't seen enough photos from the Libian accident to draw any conclusions in comparisons and probably by the time I see any, the on-scene investigators will already have those answers and be working towards the cause.

[RetiredF4]

Speculating:
Would it be thinkable, that the moment they applied TOGA (assuming from former posts that they did so), their eyes had been still outside the cockpit trying t o see some reference or other traffic conflicting with the missed approach? Could the increase in thrust and acceleration without instrument reference lead to spatial disorientation sensing a nose rising too high attitude and compensating with a stick forward movement, thus ending in an accelerating dive into ground?
I havent flown heavies, in a combat jet in an IMC goaround it is a common false feeling.
franzl

[johdi]

See the video in this article: they are hoisting the wings near the perimeter of the airfield

AD Vliegramp Tripoli - 'Piloot meldde geen technische problemen' (483435)

[fredgrav]

Could the increase in thrust and acceleration without instrument reference lead to spatial disorientation sensing a nose rising too high attitude and compensating with a stick forward movement, thus ending in an accelerating dive in to ground?

This really makes me think to the Gulf Air A320 crashed in Bahrain 10 years ago at night. By applying TOGA Thrust on GA, the pilot had the somatogravic illusion induced by the aircraft acceleration that caused him to perceive as if the aircraft was pitching up, thus leading him to respond by making a pitch-down input on the stick: the aircraft had a negative attitude when hitting the water. According to what's been seen by some eyewitnesses, the Afriqiyah A330 stroke the ground with a negative attitude too.

Here's a plan view of Bahrain:



At that point it comes a doubt, was spatial disorientation at the bottom of the accident ? ...

§ fredgrav

[dreamflier]

Something which might be of interest:

The official said the boy was found at one end of the crash site about half a mile from the large tail section of the plane - something that could indicate he was sitting in the front of the plane.

IOL: Crash survivor not told about family's death=

[PJ2]

lomapaseo, yes, re parsing - precisely; the suggestions are absolutely tentative but I think growing more reasonable. The energy gained would be from the height, (vertical speed), not from forward speed. That said, takata expresses the notion of high forward speed; perhaps - it wouldn't take that high a speed to fragment the airplane as it has been - 200kts would likely do it.

fredgrav;

Yes, I thought of the Gulfair accident a few days ago but didn't feel as though enough was known about final attitudes of this aircraft. The comment that the airplane was pointed downwards, although unconfirmed still, does make one consider the possibility more seriously. I think knowing exactly what the weather conditions were like is now more important. I know what the METARS say but there are also comments about pockets of mist and the possibility of '2km visibility', (Dutch article previously quoted).

[barit1]

I haven't seen evidence of a significant crater in the ground, typical of a very steep impact. Could she have hit a rocky outcrop?

[ExSp33db1rd]

........a possible pilot error does not automatically mean that the pilots are to blame.......

Absolutely, tho' they usually are blamed as the easiest target, and sometimes unable to fight back.

IF there is pilot error - and I'm not referring specifically to this accident - let's not forget that it is usually the last error in the chain, and when the pilot is no longer around there is often no way to determine what blameworthy previous errors or omissions made by others led the pilot to make that last fateful decision based on erroneous information being presented, either mechanically, visually, electronically - or however.

[Old_Fokker]

Overview of impact/crash site

Dutch TV program Nova contained an interesting clip tonight of the whole crash site, filmed from another plane as it approached 09 (today or yesterday, time footage was shot is unclear).

Fast Forward to 20 min 43 seconds, approximately. Disregard dutch comment, it is not related to clip itself.

Visible is what could resemble a first impact area plus signs of the plane sliding straight forward. The tail section plus smaller debris appears to be located some 200 meters after this first impact area (in front of the mosque described by others). It appears the plane was more or less intact before that point.

A large debris field can be seen after the tail-section with relatively small pieces and stretches for some 240 meters. One large section (wings?) appears approx 200 meters further with relatively little (if any) debris in between those 2 points (though it appears the ground is scratched in between). There's approx 730 meters between what appears to be first impact area and this large piece (wings?).

After carefully watching this clip a few times, I believe it might be possible that the plane was intact and with its wings level when it hit the ground and slid for some 200 meters and eventually broke up (tail first) when it hit the road which runs North-West near the mosque. In clip, this road appears to be slightly higher then surrounding terrain.

Editted to clarify one point