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Polish Government Tu154M crash

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Polish Government Tu154M crash

Old 11th Apr 2010, 20:15
  #301 (permalink)  
 
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Crash: Polish Air Force T154 at Smolensk on Apr 10th 2010, impacted trees on first approach

Interesting in the data Aviation Herald is now showing.
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Old 11th Apr 2010, 20:18
  #302 (permalink)  
 
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I was typing when listening live to the interview with Col. Pietrzak.

What he was exactly saying was (afair):

"In Smolensk they use old military procedures, based on two NDB
(blizsha, dalsha) outer, inner ??, in combination with PAR,
not used and trained in Poland since years."

I don't have the interview in text form, so that's all I can say.

There are still a lot active NDBs in Poland.

Last edited by Ptkay; 11th Apr 2010 at 20:45.
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Old 11th Apr 2010, 20:19
  #303 (permalink)  
 
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A previous poster commented that people 'deserve' to fly on 'safe' aircraft with 'safe' systems and 'professional' crew, though he stopped short of saying that operations into sub-standard airports should be banned, even though there is comprehensive evidence that they should (forgive me, I'm paraphrasing).

While that's a lovely idea, the fact is that the public now believe that aviation is 'safe' enough (and why not, aviation has been shouting that at them for years) and this explains some of the horrific and unnecessary things that go on.

It would be lovely to think that a tragic and high profile accident like this would engender change, but it won't. We'd need loads more accidents, and many more grieving families, before we saw a worthwhile change. ('tombstone imperative' qv).

Sorry to be the harbinger of doom, but those are the facts (and I've been around long enough, and in enough places, to have worked them out for myself).

flh
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Old 11th Apr 2010, 20:21
  #304 (permalink)  
 
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Minor detail. It's Col. Pietrzak and not Pietrzyk.

Arrakis
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Old 11th Apr 2010, 20:25
  #305 (permalink)  
dvv
 
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Quote:
T154 — difficult?
A wise old Tu5 training captain once said" "a long final is the secret of long life!"
Yeah. Try that, say, landing 08 at Innsbruck…
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Old 11th Apr 2010, 20:39
  #306 (permalink)  
 
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Try that, say, landing 08 at Innsbruck…
I believe he never tried that. However he did try Hanoi in '72, approach instructions were "follow river North till wrecked railway bridge. continue heading 360 for 20 kms. establish visual contact with runway to the left, circle field and land at discretion"... He did live to a ripe age of 88, telling stories like that all the way...

"Irony introduces an element of humour which may make the criticism seem more polite and less aggressive, but understanding the subtlety of this usage requires second-order interpretation of the speaker's intentions" (Merriam-Webster)
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Old 11th Apr 2010, 20:53
  #307 (permalink)  
 
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Here's a photo of the Tu-154M cockpit (the aircraft itself) on A.net:

Photos: Tupolev Tu-154M Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net

As you can see, it has significantly more modern technology than the standard Tu-154 cockpit:

Photos: Tupolev Tu-154B-2 Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net

Of course, a (more) modern cockpit fit does not equal CAT III; we don't know what the Polish AF's procedures for low visibility landings are, or whether the acft equipped or crew trained for low visibility approaches.

As for the conspiracy theories about the Russians being involved in foul play, let's leave that kind of nonsense to the conspiracy theorists, some of whom still insist that the USN shot down TW 800. While many may not like Putin, there is a slight difference between him and Stalin ...
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Old 11th Apr 2010, 21:06
  #308 (permalink)  
 
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Here's a photo of the Tu-154M cockpit (the aircraft itself) on A.net:

Photos: Tupolev Tu-154M Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net
This is photo from MAY 2007. In 2009/2010 this aircraft was moderated. I don't know full specs of modernisation, but I think, that they make some upgrades.
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Old 11th Apr 2010, 21:07
  #309 (permalink)  
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-M is a significant upgrade compared to -B, so to compare apples to (fresher) apples, see Photos: Tupolev Tu-154M Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net
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Old 11th Apr 2010, 21:11
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A- It wasn't such a great job if that was the most experience they could attract/keep (1000€ a month , well, better use in Poland than the rest of Europe, but hardly a
1000 euros a month is a good wage in Poland, its the level of pay in a corporate employer.

Poland deserved to have their President and entourage flown by a professional , highly experienced and well paid flight crew operating a modern and well equipped aircraft into this sub-standard airport . Unfortunately , you get what you pay for.
Well, thats a rather superficial attitude, pay me more and I will be better....
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Old 11th Apr 2010, 21:17
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Hi,

It would be lovely to think that a tragic and high profile accident like this would engender change, but it won't
ATC warned the pilot and suggested diversion.
Pilot in command take a other decision.
Crash occur.

A riddle:
to which the finger will be pointed ?
ATC ?
Lack of equipements on the airport ?
The pilot ?
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Old 11th Apr 2010, 21:20
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1000 euros a month is a good wage in Poland, its the level of pay in a corporate employer.
really? The national average salary in Poland (2008) was 3033 PLN = 755 EUR
do you think that is good salary for pilots who has responsibilty on a little higher level than taxi driver?
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Old 11th Apr 2010, 21:26
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really? The national average salary in Poland (2008) was 3033 PLN = 755 EUR
do you think that is good salary for pilots who has responsibilty on a little higher level than taxi driver?
Its 30% above the national average and I don see how paying someone more money would make them a safer pilot. Military pay is always bad in any case, so why do people join the military?

Last edited by peter we; 12th Apr 2010 at 05:50.
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Old 11th Apr 2010, 21:30
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6000PIC wrote:

" Poland deserved to have their President and entourage flown by a professional , highly experienced and well paid flight crew operating a modern and well equipped aircraft into this sub-standard airport . Unfortunately , you get what you pay for. Hopefully in the future , policy will change , although I`m not sure it will.
To violate minimums and press on below a safe DH / DA / MDA in todays world with the lessons of the previous 60 years of modern aviation behind us is in the least , totally unprofessional , at the worst , it is criminal.
Handling a pressure situation and ensuring a safe outcome by following the rules and regulations is at the core of what we do as aviators. To allow the situation and others to push you beyond all common sense levels of safety is evidence of inexperience and will result in disasters such as this every time."

Straight to the point. The rest is endless and empty rubish.
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Old 11th Apr 2010, 21:32
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-M is a significant upgrade compared to -B,
It's a lot more than just an upgrade, the wing is totally different, and so it the aerodynamics.
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Old 11th Apr 2010, 21:40
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Well, as much as I know about the investigation processes, and how deep they dig....the results/reports and analysis should not be 100% publicly available, if we consider the fact that one of the countries is under NATO flag, and other is not. Digging deeper - too much dirty loundry (of the military AF) for the whole world to see.

Even if any lessons will be learned, I'm not sure if much will change. Previous posters rightfully mentioned military AF mentality differences of the post Soviet block countries and those of Old Europe or equivalent. The fact is, the old system corrupts the young. I've seen both sides.

There's a lot of ignorance in the top brass for aviation safety (government level) in the post Soviet block countries. That pertains to both military and civilian aviation.

So after this, who would at the government level keep flying a/c with almost nonexistant air force supervisory authority (there are such in the old NATO countries with more developed AF)? Too much national pride.

BTW, language (any language) profficiency requirements apply only to civil aviation. So, if the polish pilots had Level 4 in Russian, and Russian ATC had Level 4 in Plain Russian, that would be ok. English proficiency applies to aerodromes where Intl traffic operates. This was purely military airfield.
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Old 11th Apr 2010, 21:55
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fullforward...

You wrote, "the rest is endless and empty rubbish"

So... you have already confirmed that this crash resulted from an erroneous command decision by an under-paid and under-qualified pilot flying an unsafe aircarft. Sure could have used your amazing insight and investigative skills over the years.

Though I'm not Russian, nor Polish, I know MAK very well -- and I'm confident they will conduct a thorough and professional investigation, including having an in-depth look at the flight crew’s experience level and their decision making. Without benefit of your expertise they might even look at other factors such as:
· Weather
· Aircraft systems and equipment
· Nav and approach aids (including PAR/GCA)
· Human factors -- such as the one mentioned by Ptkay: “ICAO, including Poland uses QNH, Russia and Russian trained military QFE. When doing my training with ex military CFI, he insisted for QFE, I had to rethink and learn flying QNH”
· Language issues

In the meantime, wanna tell us what happened to AF447?

grizz
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Old 11th Apr 2010, 22:25
  #318 (permalink)  
 
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Any flight that ends in a horrible crash with 100 % fatalities in conditions such as this - ACTUAL weather BELOW minimums is DEFINITELY the result of erroneous command decisions. This was not a remotely controlled aircraft - human beings allowed this to happen ! This BS about it " taking a lot of guts " to go around / divert is just that. It`s simple , we divert and go around all the time , the world over !!! The fact that the pilots were probably under paid and underqualified , well that`s an indictment that the Polish people will have to address. They shouldn`t have been that LOW in that POSITION in that visibility.
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Old 12th Apr 2010, 01:11
  #319 (permalink)  
 
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Facts

Let's face some cold and hard facts of life: it's not the first and unfortunately not the last time that a perfectly sound aircraft is CFIT. Every single time it happened, human error (and frequently criminal), played the most important role. Simple like this, no rocket science.
Every time some poor bastards screw up like this the industry is affected as whole.
It's a stupid, easily avoidable tragedy by simply following rules as old as Aviation itself.
In the event of this investigation reveal (if ever) something diferent I'll humbly offer my face to be slapped.
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Old 12th Apr 2010, 01:58
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Controller's statement sounds pretty straight and believable to me... stating the hard facts. Let's not put words nor ideas, nor motives into the equation... questioner was digging, controller answered what appears to be frankly.

No need to guess about that first approach to take a look-see - more facts will be arriving for quite some time, information incoming, beware....
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