Polish Government Tu154M crash
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Another contribution to the "mentality" theory is the case of the 11-nov-1998
air parade in Warsaw on National Day and the 80th anniversary of the Resurrection
of Poland.
In spite of marginal weather, the generals on the tribune ordered the aircraft to take off.
The officers opposed, so the generals ordered a training aircraft, Iskra to
do the "weather reconnaissance" flight.
The aircraft flew into cloud and eventually crashed due to instruments icing and
spatial disorientation.
ASN Aircraft accident 11-NOV-1998 TS-11 "Iskra"
In spite of that accident the generals ordered two fighter jets to take off and
do a flyover near the tribunes.
The ceiling was 400m, the two jets buzzed at 300m above a 2 mil. city
below the tops of the skyscrapers.
This action resulted in court-martial for the few of the generals and colonels,
but just with minor penalties or aquittal.
Also a very important anniversary, President, Prime Minister and a lot
of other officials on the tribune...
The Air Force couldn't allow to be humiliated by the stupid weather.
air parade in Warsaw on National Day and the 80th anniversary of the Resurrection
of Poland.
In spite of marginal weather, the generals on the tribune ordered the aircraft to take off.
The officers opposed, so the generals ordered a training aircraft, Iskra to
do the "weather reconnaissance" flight.
The aircraft flew into cloud and eventually crashed due to instruments icing and
spatial disorientation.
ASN Aircraft accident 11-NOV-1998 TS-11 "Iskra"
In spite of that accident the generals ordered two fighter jets to take off and
do a flyover near the tribunes.
The ceiling was 400m, the two jets buzzed at 300m above a 2 mil. city
below the tops of the skyscrapers.
This action resulted in court-martial for the few of the generals and colonels,
but just with minor penalties or aquittal.
Also a very important anniversary, President, Prime Minister and a lot
of other officials on the tribune...
The Air Force couldn't allow to be humiliated by the stupid weather.
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Do any of you recall the story of the USS Shenandoah, or the Akron, the Macon?
These were dirigibles belonging to the US Navy, and they were ordered to fly in bad weather. They were lost with many dead crew members. These were flying aircraft carriers for those of you who might have a glimmer.
One was lost enroute to a State Fair. The commander of one of the airships was a good friend of billy mitchel. This was part of the triggering for his court martial about air power.
We must look at the past in order to move forward and do right in the present and future.
These were dirigibles belonging to the US Navy, and they were ordered to fly in bad weather. They were lost with many dead crew members. These were flying aircraft carriers for those of you who might have a glimmer.
One was lost enroute to a State Fair. The commander of one of the airships was a good friend of billy mitchel. This was part of the triggering for his court martial about air power.
We must look at the past in order to move forward and do right in the present and future.
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<<You can't be ordered to pull-up>>
Really? I've ordered plenty of aircraft to pull-up/ go-around/ overshoot, or whatever you like to call it, and they've all done it... without question.
<<Pilot-student (obviously following the CFI instructions)
or CFI: "Request permission to land runway xx"
FIS: "permission granted, you can land runway xx.">>
That sounds like the kind of R/T one reads in a comic. Do they really behave like that?
Bu**it!!>>
What's "bu**it" about that. I worked in ATC all my life and not once did any pilot ask me for permission to land.... and not once did I, or any controller I ever worked with, say "Permission granted..."
What kind of planet are these people on??
Really? I've ordered plenty of aircraft to pull-up/ go-around/ overshoot, or whatever you like to call it, and they've all done it... without question.
<<Pilot-student (obviously following the CFI instructions)
or CFI: "Request permission to land runway xx"
FIS: "permission granted, you can land runway xx.">>
That sounds like the kind of R/T one reads in a comic. Do they really behave like that?
Bu**it!!>>
What's "bu**it" about that. I worked in ATC all my life and not once did any pilot ask me for permission to land.... and not once did I, or any controller I ever worked with, say "Permission granted..."
What kind of planet are these people on??
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What kind of planet are these people on??
Molchay, slushay, spolniay...
(Shut up, listen, carry out)
Ordnung muss sein.
Befelh ist Befehl.
(Order is order.)
In 19th century Poland was under Russian, Prussian and Austrian occupation.
Polish army formed 1918 was conglomerate of these 3 cultures.
What kind of planet are these people on??
Sorry, no offence intended, I'm a great admirer of your fine island, but could not leave that one out...
Last edited by andrasz; 11th Apr 2010 at 15:11.
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The second pilot, major Robert Grzywna was also 36 years old.
Pure military career.
The navigator, Lt. Artur Ziętek must have been the same age.
He graduated the Military Air Force Academy in 2001.
RIP
Pure military career.
The navigator, Lt. Artur Ziętek must have been the same age.
He graduated the Military Air Force Academy in 2001.
RIP
So it is what "they" do. Just leave some untranslated russian in russian (main) part of site. BTW, its russian government web-site, and russkie speaks russian, not english, even in emergency state.
According to Georgy Poltavchenko, based on the preliminary crew-ATC communications records analysis, technical problems are rather to be ruled out.
Arrakis
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Well, here it is, written very clearly (sans the silly Google translation, although still readable) from the ******** article:
Journalists still very happy to fly with VIP.
The Prime Minister was anxious, however, is that the airplane landed at Okecie.The pilot announced that he will try to complete three approaches.If this proved to be too risky, he had to give up and go, however, to Silesia.
The plane began to descend a flight, but through the windows could not see, but a vast trouble.
At one point there was a roar - the pilot pushed the chassis. Silent jokes, there was laughter.Everyone expected that in a moment the wheels touch the runway but the pilot jerked the machine and began to prepare for the second approach.
When this time the pilot jerked the machine, no one imagined that it would take another test.But this time the pilot began to descend sharply down and the plane crashed on the belt wheels.At this point, one of the journalists could not stand and began to cry - Jesus! Help! We will crash!
- Political journalist Martin says Graczyk.
Despite the terrible air-conditioning inside, and the various inconveniences to be in a group chosen gives a sense of ennoblement.
- How to die, is in good company - Margaret Naukowicz repeats, which is a frequent guest on board a government plane.
This gloomy scenario is rather unlikely, because tutkami pilots fly very good.They gave evidence that even when some of Leszek Miller to return to France.Snow-storm raged over Warsaw.Better weather was in Katowice, and there had to land the plane. - How to die, is in good company - Margaret Naukowicz repeats, which is a frequent guest on board a government plane.
The Prime Minister was anxious, however, is that the airplane landed at Okecie.The pilot announced that he will try to complete three approaches.If this proved to be too risky, he had to give up and go, however, to Silesia.
The plane began to descend a flight, but through the windows could not see, but a vast trouble.
At one point there was a roar - the pilot pushed the chassis. Silent jokes, there was laughter.Everyone expected that in a moment the wheels touch the runway but the pilot jerked the machine and began to prepare for the second approach.
When this time the pilot jerked the machine, no one imagined that it would take another test.But this time the pilot began to descend sharply down and the plane crashed on the belt wheels.At this point, one of the journalists could not stand and began to cry - Jesus! Help! We will crash!
- Political journalist Martin says Graczyk.
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From the online version of the British newspaper The Independent on Sunday
Former president, Solidarity founder and Peace Prize laureaute Lech Walesa, said it was too soon to cast blame.
"Someone must have been taking decisions on that plane. I don't believe that the pilot took decisions single-handedly," he told reporters. "That's not possible. I have flown a lot and whenever there were doubts , they always came to the leaders and asked for a decision, and based on that, pilots took decisions. Sometimes the decision was against the leader's instructions."
"Someone must have been taking decisions on that plane. I don't believe that the pilot took decisions single-handedly," he told reporters. "That's not possible. I have flown a lot and whenever there were doubts , they always came to the leaders and asked for a decision, and based on that, pilots took decisions. Sometimes the decision was against the leader's instructions."
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This time there were no journalists on board.
(Which was very common.)
There was not enough room for them in the Tu-154, so they were supposed to fly
the Yak-40, also from the same PAF unit.
They embarked, waited for an hour, then they were told, there is a technical problem
and another Yak-40 will be provided...
They eventually reached Smloleńsk 2 hours before the Tu-154 accident.
They reported, there was already fog over the airfield, but they landed without
incident.
(Which was very common.)
There was not enough room for them in the Tu-154, so they were supposed to fly
the Yak-40, also from the same PAF unit.
They embarked, waited for an hour, then they were told, there is a technical problem
and another Yak-40 will be provided...
They eventually reached Smloleńsk 2 hours before the Tu-154 accident.
They reported, there was already fog over the airfield, but they landed without
incident.
Pilot's background
LOT phased out their TU5's in 1994, so simply their age precludes either of the pilots from having had any airline experience. However this same age precludes them from having been of the old school
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Interview with Smolensk ATC
Link (Russian)
- Crew were suggested to divert, they decided to try one approach before diverting (enough fuel on board)
- During approach, crew didn't read back radio altimeter values (ATC speculates, that they had difficulties with speaking numbers in Russian)
- Crew were suggested to divert, they decided to try one approach before diverting (enough fuel on board)
- During approach, crew didn't read back radio altimeter values (ATC speculates, that they had difficulties with speaking numbers in Russian)
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What's "bu**it" about that. I worked in ATC all my life and not once did any pilot ask me for permission to land.... and not once did I, or any controller I ever worked with, say "Permission granted..."
Did you say, that is normal for every polish pilots or what?
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Andrasz, they were certainly not "old school",
but the top brass on board, as well as the President himself, were.
"Młody, ląduj"
"You young one, just land"
This is what a young officer hears from the older one, if he starts to complain...
You should know what a young soldier, new in the unit has to expect from the
older ones...
Certainly not respect and understanding.
but the top brass on board, as well as the President himself, were.
"Młody, ląduj"
"You young one, just land"
This is what a young officer hears from the older one, if he starts to complain...
You should know what a young soldier, new in the unit has to expect from the
older ones...
Certainly not respect and understanding.
Last edited by Ptkay; 11th Apr 2010 at 16:04.
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HEATHROW DIRECTOR?
"Bu**it!!>>
What's "bu**it" about that. I worked in ATC all my life and not once did any pilot ask me for permission to land.... and not once did I, or any controller I ever worked with, say "Permission granted..."
What kind of planet are these people on??"
Your comment to "Yeah
" just doesn't make any sense! You are both agreeing on the same thing here!
HD what planet are you on?
"Bu**it!!>>
What's "bu**it" about that. I worked in ATC all my life and not once did any pilot ask me for permission to land.... and not once did I, or any controller I ever worked with, say "Permission granted..."
What kind of planet are these people on??"
Your comment to "Yeah
" just doesn't make any sense! You are both agreeing on the same thing here!HD what planet are you on?
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Yeah.. There is standard R/T phraseology, used worldwide. It's the sort of thing one reads in cheapo newspapers: "The pilot called for permission to land". That's not the way things work!
Someone suggested that the UK is different from "the Continent". In respect of what I said, it isn't, but reading this thread I'm very, very glad I live in the UK!!
Someone suggested that the UK is different from "the Continent". In respect of what I said, it isn't, but reading this thread I'm very, very glad I live in the UK!!
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Another aspect:
The young pilots, born 1974 were still having Russian language classes at school,
but after 1989 seldom had the opportunity to use it.
Older ones still used to have a lot to do with it during the common exercise
with other pilots of the block, Russian was the common language
of the Warsaw Pact.
Understanding problems with the ATC are probable...
The young pilots, born 1974 were still having Russian language classes at school,
but after 1989 seldom had the opportunity to use it.
Older ones still used to have a lot to do with it during the common exercise
with other pilots of the block, Russian was the common language
of the Warsaw Pact.
Understanding problems with the ATC are probable...
Some of PPRuNe's corespondents might be guilty of assuming that the rules that applied in their air force applied to all.
HD/Skyglider,
Highly amusing to watch such misunderstandings develop, if only there weren't the sad background to it...
The quoted phraseology has nothing to do with aviation - that's how you would expect peple with Warsaw Pact military background to communicate. All of us who grew up with (and did experience firsthand) such terminology will recognise it instantly. Lucky you who dont.
Highly amusing to watch such misunderstandings develop, if only there weren't the sad background to it...
The quoted phraseology has nothing to do with aviation - that's how you would expect peple with Warsaw Pact military background to communicate. All of us who grew up with (and did experience firsthand) such terminology will recognise it instantly. Lucky you who dont.