KLM 737 @t EHAM & Aeroflot 737 @ ENGM taxiway take-off

[nishant chander]

serious breach.

I can understand, if its a parallel runway, but parallel taxiway its a serious breach, especially, the blue taxi way edge lights if its a night time.

[ACCP]

What is interesting is that this was at a home base and not an outstation.

PM, don't tell me you've never been tempted to take off from the taxiway at NCL. Most people reach V1 on their way to the holding point.

[Flying Spaniard]

guys, guys, c'mon!! the Dutch maybe arrogant but also incredibly efficient and green at times, maybe the crew was just trying to save a few grams of CO2 emissions and time??

[PENKO]

I can understand, if its a parallel runway, but parallel taxiway its a serious breach, especially, the blue taxi way edge lights if its a night time

I think we all have exactly the same thoughts. However the very fact that they were taxying along blue and green lights for a long time already might worsen the situation, as a colleague of mine recently argued. If all you see when taxying out is green and blue taxiwaylights, and for some reason you are so distracted that you think you are on a runway, then there is no give away: your mind will be accustomed to the green and blue, the lights continue to be green and blue, all seems nice and peaceful. Sounds a bit fuzzy, but human psychology is fuzzy. This mistake for instance, would have less a chance of happening if just for the sake of argument, taxiway B had purple lights. Then there would be a change in stead of a continuation of the same, triggering the mind to be more alert. Of course, we are talking about a situation where a lot has gone wrong already.

Consider also that it was not quite dark yet (as I understand/speculate it at least). So it would not be absolutely necessary to expect a full row of white runway lights. Keep that in mind! So, you don't necessarily expect full rwy lights, there is no sudden change in lighting...crew severely distracted maybe...

Again, very fuzzy, but the answer to a mistake like this will be fuzzy anyway.

[agmhet]

Green and blue lights?

Try this, and be honest !

http://www.humorsphere.com/fun/8787/colortest.swf

I wonder how many pilots get 100% first try !

[737 Speedbrakes]

100% Score

[Pander216]

100%, but then again, I am a KLM pilot

This was offcourse sarcastic...

[green granite]

100%, but that's logical since I am a SLF.

[Denti]

Exactly, it would. Are you going to guarantee this wouldn't happen to a BA crew on their home turf or an Air France crew (I nearly wrote Lufthansa, but they are on strike) on theirs?

By the way? Which of those airlines have RAAS installed? I heard lufty does, but dunno about the others. Dunno if it would have helped here, but it is supposed to increase situational awareness on the ground.

[617SquadronDB]

Strange Test!

Very humorous indeed...

[clouddriver]

Ok, to everyone bashing the total group of 2700+ KLM pilots,

Please come over to my house and have a beer with me, you'll see I'm not very different than all of you, i love aviation, i try to be as professional as i can and i am lucky to have a well paying and stable contract at a an airline that cares well for it's employees. I don't complain and am very grateful to be able to do my job under the conditions provided by KLM.

I have never been told either by my instructors or fellow pilots that I AM THE BEST, some people on her live with the assumption that klm pilots are brain washed to think they are the TOP GUNS of commercial aviation. I don't know where they get it from.....

I would like to tell you that because of the current economic climate and the state af-klm is in, a few hundred pilots are voluntarily working ground shifts iso flying, and they are loading bagage, driving toilet trucks, connecting ground equipment etc etc all with fellow rampers in the cold winter. Do you call this arrogance? Every klm pilot loves their company, yes, but that doesn't make us a arrogant lot, it makes us a PROUD lot.

So please stop all the assumptions, come and have a beer and focus on the serious incident and the lessons that will be learnt

Safe Flying,

clouddriver

[sb_sfo]

clouddriver

I understand that you would like to tell us that hundreds of flight crew are working the ramp this winter. Does that mean that they actually are, or that you would like to tell us that this is a fact?

[piton]

As a pilot from another dutch airline I can assure you that klm pilots are working in other departments as needed.That has been happening since the summer.

Further: the aircraft in question was de-iced on the J platform and sent south on the outer (B or D) taxiway (nonstandard).

Then they were cleared to take off - they turned and took off on the next right hand piece of tarmac which if they were on the standard inner A/C taxiway would have been the runway 36C.

So the non standard taxiway clearance increased the lack of SA. Not an excuse but a contributing factor....

[sb_sfo]

piton

If that's the case, and they are actually driving turd hearses and loading bags, I salute them. As 1/4 Dutch myself, I am glad to hear it. Not many others would do that.

[Admiral346]

Clouddriver

Unfortunately you made it a condition to be bashing all the KLM pilots to get that beer with you - I can't, I don't know them all.
But as I have just returned from skiing in Austria, maybe I could qualify for that beer by bashing the dutch's ability to ski? - I could perfectly testify to it, as I just met all of them in that village in tirol...

Cheers, Nic

[Admiral346]

more serious

Yes, Lufthansa's fleet is equipped with RAAS - and even as many of us hate "Bitchin' Betty" (the female voice) babbling into a clearance, so one has to inquire with a "confirm cleared line-up?", it sure has found it's way into my scan when approaching a RWY. Or more so, it not being there, when expecting to hear it - kind of like the OM tone when the blue light is flashing and some collegue has turned off the volume.
So I am not sure, if it would keep me from initiating take off on a taxiway, the help you get from it is rather subconscious, but exceeding 40 kts you get a "On taxiway, on taxiway", loud, not to be missed and not heard during everyday ops (except for taking the Q-bridge at AMS and forgetting to close the throttles when going back down the other side of it...). That should tear everyone from their cosy dreamlike state when doing something completely routine.
On the other hand, the standard reply by pilots to a terrain warning is "That can't be!". Of course noone manouvers towards a warning like that consciously, and believing it being valid takes tearing down the entire mental picture of your situation, a very hard thing to do as it leaves you lost in space and time and requires reconstruction of situational awareness in mid flight - resulting in utter confusion.

Then it has helped keep my taxispeed below 40 kts, at least...

Nic

[the_stranger]

@SB SFO

Not only are hunderds of KLM pilots working in other departments (not only on the ramp, but also updating books, translating labor agreement, making flightplans etc), certain CA's are also working "on the ground", as part of the check-in staff, unaccompanied minors transport etc etc. Just today there was news that pilots might even be temporarily employed as cabin crew, allthough that news has not been confirmed to me.

And off course, the majority of the KLM workforce, be it "on the ground" of "in the air" consists of normal people, with their normal dreams, wishes and quirks. There are always some bad apples who fit the "arrogant" description, but are they not to be found in every airline? (or every industry?)

[A/P Disc]

Quote:

"I have never been told either by my instructors or fellow
pilots that I AM THE BEST, some people on her live with the assumption that
klm pilots are brain washed to think they are the TOP GUNS of commercial aviation. I don't know where they get it from....."

Well... I know exactly where some KLM pilots get told that and where they
get it from: the KLM Flight Acadamy (KLS). I've seen it and heard it myself.
Singing songs during the introduction week like: we are the Chosen
ones etc.

One can spot the difference between a KLS and Non KLS KLM pilot a mile
away. Young second officers claiming seniority and airplane types.Attitude
problems arising from the KLS system have been a major problem for a long
time and have been well documented over the years.

In all fairness: most KLM pilots are fine folk, some of them are slightly
deluded by a questionable mentality at their flying school.

[PLovett]

Gentlemen, in the formal sense of the word, I have always found it a useful adage in life to never argue with idiots. They will only drag you down to their level and beat you on experience at it.

[taildrag]

Arrogance is where you find it. Dutch-Brit wars.

I was working at a US regional years ago, when I spotted an advert for KLM Cityhopper pilots, who at the time could eventually move up to the mainline. We had a young Swedish lad working for us, and I gave him the advert and asked if he were interested. Fire came immediately into his eyes, and, to my shock and amazement, he actually shouted, at top volume, "I'd never work for those Dutch bastards!" Others in the crew room were startled at his vehemence.

Ah, but on the other side, many Yanks think the old school British captains are arrogant. About 30 years I spoke to an Irish-American who held dual citizenship and was commuting to Bahrain, where he was a Tri-Star captain for Gulf Air.

"How do you like working there?" I inquired.

"Too many Nigels," he replied.

Rawther!