KLM 737 @t EHAM & Aeroflot 737 @ ENGM taxiway take-off
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What I really would like to know what other foreign pilots think of Amsterdam airport. It wouldn't surprise me if all those superfluous and unnecessary procedures that AMS ATC comes up with contributed to this accident.
(Interesting to see btw that Steve M. never fails to respond to an opportunity to bash KLM.....see his other posts.)
Last edited by Surferboy; 18th Feb 2010 at 22:42.
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good points-bad points
Removing the airline names from this incident for sake of clarity.
An aircraft landed on a taxiway at LGW some years ago, another took off on a runway covered in construction equipment, another, the worst single accident in aviation history and a core subject for discussion in CRM courses, took off without a clearance in fog.
Our collective aim as professional pilots has to be to learn from these, and a myriad of subtle incidents that occur every day of our working lives, and when we analyze them take them through to the worst case scenario.
That is the business we are in, risk assessment and risk management.
Every airport is different, AMS has it's quirks despite it's size, as does ZRH .. CDG, etc..
Fact is once in a while something like this incident comes along and refocuses minds which is no bad thing.
The question I always ask is ... could that have been me ?
and if not why not ?
An aircraft landed on a taxiway at LGW some years ago, another took off on a runway covered in construction equipment, another, the worst single accident in aviation history and a core subject for discussion in CRM courses, took off without a clearance in fog.
Our collective aim as professional pilots has to be to learn from these, and a myriad of subtle incidents that occur every day of our working lives, and when we analyze them take them through to the worst case scenario.
That is the business we are in, risk assessment and risk management.
Every airport is different, AMS has it's quirks despite it's size, as does ZRH .. CDG, etc..
Fact is once in a while something like this incident comes along and refocuses minds which is no bad thing.
The question I always ask is ... could that have been me ?
and if not why not ?
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Yes, some (especially old-school) KLM pilots are arogant, but so are some Lufthansa or BA crews when I kindly greet them in the hotel or at their home airport. And I don't see you guys waving as much to spotters as we do 
At lot has changed within KLM since freemarketeers joined (especially within KLC after 2005). Furthermore the introduction of the manufacturers ''Basic Operating Philosophy'' has positively contributed to the arrogance of ''having the best SOP's in the world'' attitude.
So please stop bashing ALL the Dutch KLM pilots with your denigrating comments based merely on nationality and colour of tie. Your comments say more about you than about me and a lot of great colleagues of mine...
Regarding AMS;
Schiphol has the most easy infrastructure there is in Europe.
-A taxiway is the inner taxiway and has to be followed clockwise.
-B taxiway is the outer taxiway and has to be followed counter-clockwise.
-Al runway intersections are named respective to their compass direction. i.e runway 27 intersections are named N because it is the northerly runway. 24 is the southerly runway, thus the intersections are called S7, S6 etc. Evenmore the SIDS are also named to their respective runway; ARNEM1S from 24, ARNEM1E from 27.
-Crossing of 36C at W5 only happens when 36C is not in use. If 36C is in use for take off, or 18C for landing, traffic to or from 36L will taxi via Z.
-The use of 36L is merely a political issue and of all operators using AMS, KLM suffers the most from this runway.
If you don't know how to taxi at AMS (see above basic rules) you better should read those Aerodrome Information pages anyway in stead of b*thcing about them. That is called airmanship just as much as situational awareness is.
Last but not least; AMS ATC may sound arrogant to foreign pilots, but they are short, direct and clear without ambiguous clearances or calls. They are flexible with short approaches, offering a break off to 24 from 27, taxi routings etc. And they have the best sense humour of al the ATC stations I know.
So now please lets go back on topic...
At lot has changed within KLM since freemarketeers joined (especially within KLC after 2005). Furthermore the introduction of the manufacturers ''Basic Operating Philosophy'' has positively contributed to the arrogance of ''having the best SOP's in the world'' attitude.
So please stop bashing ALL the Dutch KLM pilots with your denigrating comments based merely on nationality and colour of tie. Your comments say more about you than about me and a lot of great colleagues of mine...
Regarding AMS;
Schiphol has the most easy infrastructure there is in Europe.
-A taxiway is the inner taxiway and has to be followed clockwise.
-B taxiway is the outer taxiway and has to be followed counter-clockwise.
-Al runway intersections are named respective to their compass direction. i.e runway 27 intersections are named N because it is the northerly runway. 24 is the southerly runway, thus the intersections are called S7, S6 etc. Evenmore the SIDS are also named to their respective runway; ARNEM1S from 24, ARNEM1E from 27.
-Crossing of 36C at W5 only happens when 36C is not in use. If 36C is in use for take off, or 18C for landing, traffic to or from 36L will taxi via Z.
-The use of 36L is merely a political issue and of all operators using AMS, KLM suffers the most from this runway.
If you don't know how to taxi at AMS (see above basic rules) you better should read those Aerodrome Information pages anyway in stead of b*thcing about them. That is called airmanship just as much as situational awareness is.
Last but not least; AMS ATC may sound arrogant to foreign pilots, but they are short, direct and clear without ambiguous clearances or calls. They are flexible with short approaches, offering a break off to 24 from 27, taxi routings etc. And they have the best sense humour of al the ATC stations I know.
So now please lets go back on topic...
Last edited by Pander216; 20th Feb 2010 at 22:40. Reason: Spelling errors after a long days work at FL410...
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AMS ATC
Hello,
Nearly 36 years AMS was my home base, 20 years european and 16 years long haul aircraft and routes. IMHO AMS/SPL ATC is very good. I had very few unpleasant experiences. If there was a problem, because I made a mistake or they did , we always had a chat afterwards to sort things out. As I said , maybe three times in 36 years of which at least two were my fault is not that bad.
And yes the Dutch are direct and speak a different english , which may sound sometimes arrogant.
Good Flying!
John
Nearly 36 years AMS was my home base, 20 years european and 16 years long haul aircraft and routes. IMHO AMS/SPL ATC is very good. I had very few unpleasant experiences. If there was a problem, because I made a mistake or they did , we always had a chat afterwards to sort things out. As I said , maybe three times in 36 years of which at least two were my fault is not that bad.
And yes the Dutch are direct and speak a different english , which may sound sometimes arrogant.
Good Flying!
John
Last edited by Good memories; 21st Feb 2010 at 14:26.
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Allright let´s get this straight!
Being Dutch I can confirm that we are ALL arrogant. But then offcourse we are the best of the best...
In the same line of arrogance we can add:
- The French are snobby
- The germans have no sense of humor
- The British are still frustrated over losing the Empire
- The Italians are all out chashing women (this might actually be true)
- The Spanish are all sleeping siestas under there trees
- The Irish are all sitting in the pub getting drunk
So having put everybody in there box like some people love to do can we move on now.
The real reason why this happened is that both pilots were looking outside enjoying the nice tulips around the taxiway, and really those clogs that we still insist on wearing do not help in steering that 737 straight onto the runway...
(sorry couldn't resist)
Being Dutch I can confirm that we are ALL arrogant. But then offcourse we are the best of the best...
In the same line of arrogance we can add:
- The French are snobby
- The germans have no sense of humor
- The British are still frustrated over losing the Empire
- The Italians are all out chashing women (this might actually be true)
- The Spanish are all sleeping siestas under there trees
- The Irish are all sitting in the pub getting drunk
So having put everybody in there box like some people love to do can we move on now.
The real reason why this happened is that both pilots were looking outside enjoying the nice tulips around the taxiway, and really those clogs that we still insist on wearing do not help in steering that 737 straight onto the runway...
(sorry couldn't resist)
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- The Italians are all out chashing women (this might actually be true)
Dejavù, I know. But couldn't find a better clichè.
regards
PZ
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Media..
I wonder if KLM has made an official statement about this incident? Only seen a VNV one which wasn't saying a lot. Is this becoming a hush-hush type of operation by KLM to avoid painful memories of Tenerife and the accidents they had at their training facilities?
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I don't think there there's any "hush-hush" operation. As the OVV are investigating, it is probably best not to second guess the outcome of the final report and any public statement would be pointless. Either way, I'll guarantee that they'll take any action they have to in order to prevent a reoccurrence, as you would expect. So the time I'd expect a comment is when the final report is released.
But really, how naive are some of you lot? Or are there trolls posting in this thread? The nationality of the crew and/or airline has bugger all to do with this incident. The relevant bits are what happened immediately prior to the start of the roll the crew's interaction with each other and third parties. The lessons to be learnt from this incident will fortunately be available for all of to learn from, I suppose with the exceptions of the xenophobes who are posting here.
PM
And if you want people to start a list of who shouldn't be in civil airliners, I'd start with a few 'old school' RAF fast jet pilots. Obviously the majority are good guys but amongst them were some of my company's most unpleasant people to fly with. Fortunately, our 'liabilities' left us a few years ago and I was glad to see the back of them. And I'll tell you, I'd prefer to fly with any RNALF F16 driver than one of these plonkers.
(Too old to be a Free Marketeer)
But really, how naive are some of you lot? Or are there trolls posting in this thread? The nationality of the crew and/or airline has bugger all to do with this incident. The relevant bits are what happened immediately prior to the start of the roll the crew's interaction with each other and third parties. The lessons to be learnt from this incident will fortunately be available for all of to learn from, I suppose with the exceptions of the xenophobes who are posting here.
PM
And if you want people to start a list of who shouldn't be in civil airliners, I'd start with a few 'old school' RAF fast jet pilots. Obviously the majority are good guys but amongst them were some of my company's most unpleasant people to fly with. Fortunately, our 'liabilities' left us a few years ago and I was glad to see the back of them. And I'll tell you, I'd prefer to fly with any RNALF F16 driver than one of these plonkers.
(Too old to be a Free Marketeer)
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
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Originally Posted by P M
The nationality of the crew and/or airline has bugger all to do with this incident.
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i wonder if someone knew
what was happening - for example some of the pax 
or at what point did the pilots realize something doesn't look right [/
\-||-/\]
imagine finding out what is wrong and having to decide: "reject yes / no?"
i'm guessin' one needs to have some "cojones" to be a pilot (sorry for the expression to all ladies in the cockpit)
respect to all of you and thank you!
btw, what can i do as a pax, if i see something i'm really sure is wrong during a take-off roll? (fire, fuel leak, smoke..)
or at what point did the pilots realize something doesn't look right [/
\-||-/\]imagine finding out what is wrong and having to decide: "reject yes / no?"
i'm guessin' one needs to have some "cojones" to be a pilot (sorry for the expression to all ladies in the cockpit)
respect to all of you and thank you!
btw, what can i do as a pax, if i see something i'm really sure is wrong during a take-off roll? (fire, fuel leak, smoke..)
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Just like a bus, ring the little bell over your head and the plane will stop to let you off at the next stop
Seriously though, unless it is very early in the take off roll, and you run like a madman and thump the cockpit door ( that would possibly work on Ryanair, don't know about other carriers) "not a lot" is the answer.
It would indeed be fairly horrendous to sit and watch bits of wing or whatever detaching before your eyes, but the acceleration of most modern jets would work against you having the time to intervene in most cases.
Best not to think about it, or you won't ever accept a window seat again
Seriously though, unless it is very early in the take off roll, and you run like a madman and thump the cockpit door ( that would possibly work on Ryanair, don't know about other carriers) "not a lot" is the answer.
It would indeed be fairly horrendous to sit and watch bits of wing or whatever detaching before your eyes, but the acceleration of most modern jets would work against you having the time to intervene in most cases.
Best not to think about it, or you won't ever accept a window seat again
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thank you for your answer captplaystation,
would alerting the cabin crew help? (by shouting and being descriptive "fire - engine - right" - i know it is noisy during the roll, but hey i would try it anyway, people would spread the message fairly quickly towards the cc)
what would a pilot (sitting in a window seat as pax, and having the necessary knowledge of the type) do in a situation like Madrid? (witnessing a take-off with incorrect flaps setting)
would alerting the cabin crew help? (by shouting and being descriptive "fire - engine - right" - i know it is noisy during the roll, but hey i would try it anyway, people would spread the message fairly quickly towards the cc)
what would a pilot (sitting in a window seat as pax, and having the necessary knowledge of the type) do in a situation like Madrid? (witnessing a take-off with incorrect flaps setting)
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At a recent safety course we were shown a photo of a 737 wing half-covered in clear ice.
The photo was taken by a dead-heading pilot from another company, who watched in horror as the aircraft lined up with a layer of fresh powdery snow on its wings. As the 73 accelerated down the runway the snow blew away revealing the clear ice that had been there all night. Surprisingly (or perhaps not so surprisingly - Boeing pilots might be able to enlighten me here) the aircraft managed to fly. The ice was still there at cruising level when the guy took the photo.
Now, if it was me sitting in an aeroplane that was trying to line up without de-icing, I think I would be tempted to get out of my seat and make a fuss, anything to stop these idiots get airborne (or not getting quite airborne - even worse). How I would feel, hours or days later, locked up in a foreign jail, trying to explain to people who don't understand two words of english that I was only trying to stop an accident happening and I wasn't actually attempting to hijack an airliner, I don't know...
The photo was taken by a dead-heading pilot from another company, who watched in horror as the aircraft lined up with a layer of fresh powdery snow on its wings. As the 73 accelerated down the runway the snow blew away revealing the clear ice that had been there all night. Surprisingly (or perhaps not so surprisingly - Boeing pilots might be able to enlighten me here) the aircraft managed to fly. The ice was still there at cruising level when the guy took the photo.
Now, if it was me sitting in an aeroplane that was trying to line up without de-icing, I think I would be tempted to get out of my seat and make a fuss, anything to stop these idiots get airborne (or not getting quite airborne - even worse). How I would feel, hours or days later, locked up in a foreign jail, trying to explain to people who don't understand two words of english that I was only trying to stop an accident happening and I wasn't actually attempting to hijack an airliner, I don't know...
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...and then there's the lad sitting in 15A on a Fokker 100 when taxying out to the runway pointing hysterically to the flaps and yelling them not being set properly for take-off, identifying himself as a pilot of another airline, making a lot of fuss and noise about them flaps...
Yes it happened. Not too long ago. Took all crew on board a fair while to get him strapped into the seat again. Poor kid...
Yes it happened. Not too long ago. Took all crew on board a fair while to get him strapped into the seat again. Poor kid...
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Agree, if there were a crew member on 15A on Spanair that day then yes it might have helped - if somebody was listening to the crew member and relaying the info in time to the pointy end.
I just don't want to encourage the flying public to spend their flight time watching out for forgotten flaps and other apparently scary things and creating havoc in the cabin.
I just don't want to encourage the flying public to spend their flight time watching out for forgotten flaps and other apparently scary things and creating havoc in the cabin.
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BOAC
Exactly, it would. Are you going to guarantee this wouldn't happen to a BA crew on their home turf or an Air France crew (I nearly wrote Lufthansa, but they are on strike) on theirs? This incident may have been caused by a loss of SA, so what happened to generate that confusion (if there was any)? What is interesting is that this was at a home base and not an outstation. Also, what would have prevented this from happening at an outstation?
We'll all find out.
PM
...it would be like a Heathrow BA crew taking off on a taxiway at LHR, would it not?
We'll all find out.
PM