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United GRU-ORD Divert to MIA to Offload Purser

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United GRU-ORD Divert to MIA to Offload Purser

Old 20th Jul 2009, 20:49
  #101 (permalink)  
 
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Will there be an FAA report on this incident?
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Old 20th Jul 2009, 21:32
  #102 (permalink)  
 
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It's not for you to decide. You do not know what went on or any of the circumstances. Don't make shoot from the hip judgements.
I agree with all of that but in a general sense not with

It is not for you to presume to chose who is good enough to fly you.
I will decide which airlines I care to fly with from my perception of their professionalism, safety & service record - there are several I will not fly with for these reasons also at least one for ethical reasons (ie how I perceive they treat their staff). If you think that SLF do not care, at least about some of these points then you are mistaken.

The airline needs to put this to bed quickly or it could cause them problems as they will be perceived as having unprofessional crews and a poor management culture. And yes I know they need to do it sensitively with regard to a number of people – and not just the Captain.
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Old 20th Jul 2009, 22:59
  #103 (permalink)  
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I really do not want someone like that flying my aeroplane.
That looks pretty judgemental to me. There is a lot of comment being made that appears to indicate that a judgement has been made. The airline will look into it. Nobody knows the circumstances yet. There are some quite stupid presumptious shoot from the hip comments being made. We just don't know the circumstances. How can people be so judgemental at this stage?
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Old 20th Jul 2009, 23:09
  #104 (permalink)  
 
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I think most of us agree that the facts are not known so until then we should not be trying to judge what happened.
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Old 20th Jul 2009, 23:15
  #105 (permalink)  
 
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The Captain will be either right or wrong. That is what comes with absolute authority.

Now, if the decision is wrong, then is dismissal the right action? If the crew member is wrong, is the same consequence right? The crew member could not insist that the flight is diverted.

It does not matter about which job is the most qualified. If the Purser turns out to be the employee acting correctly, then all of the "I would do the same" chaps/ess, are wrong.
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Old 20th Jul 2009, 23:32
  #106 (permalink)  
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Slight thread drift to those winging about the seniority system.

Seniority doesn't get an automatic command. On reaching the top of the seniority system the potential captain has to have sufficient experience, as set out in the ops manual, the appropriate licence and be considered, by his peers, to be suitable.

The fact that a more junior pilot may be better does not enter into it as all pilots are assumed to be up to standard and have to pass periodic checks and assessments to prove this, if they are found to be wanting then they will get extra training and may have to be re assessed at a later date for command suitability, more junior pilots may well overtake them.
(If a qualified captain should fail to demonstrate his competence and /or suitability at a later date he may well lose his command or even his job).

If all requirements are met so far then the First Officers now have to pass a command course and demonstrate their proficiency to fly and command an aircraft with crew and passengers, not everyone makes it the first time and some don't make it at all, despite extended training.

The seniority system , combined with an efficient and fair training system, works well.
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Old 21st Jul 2009, 00:15
  #107 (permalink)  
 
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The problem is that many people get confused between authority and leadership.
Whilst agreeing with the above, I would add that some people equally get confued between Responsibility and Authority.

The latter can be delegated, the former cannot.

D.
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Old 21st Jul 2009, 00:26
  #108 (permalink)  
 
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It would appear that Captain Ding Dong will have another extended leave of absense... hopefully til his 65th birthday.
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Old 21st Jul 2009, 03:27
  #109 (permalink)  
 
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What is somewhat concerning is how the usual suspects here have rushed to defend the indefensible. However, its clear that this pilot will be doing all of his flying in the back of the plane from now on.
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Old 21st Jul 2009, 08:46
  #110 (permalink)  
 
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Have not seen defending the actions of the Commander of the UAL flight, but I have seen a lot of questions wanting to know the full story behind this incident before reaching conclusions.

I have also seen is people jumping the gun and condemning either the Captain or the Purser when it could be that the fault lies in either or both of them and when there is no background info on what the circumstances where.
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Old 21st Jul 2009, 09:45
  #111 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by etrang
What is somewhat concerning is how the usual suspects here have rushed to defend the indefensible.
No more so than those who have rushed to label the incident as "indefensible" without knowing the full story......

Originally Posted by etrang
However, its clear that this pilot will be doing all of his flying in the back of the plane from now on.
Says who?
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Old 21st Jul 2009, 09:57
  #112 (permalink)  
 
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Anyone want to discuss the airline responsibility here? They presumably made the decision to return the pilot to duty after a prolonged illness.
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Old 21st Jul 2009, 10:03
  #113 (permalink)  
 
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Thats a very good point.The management/medical staff must bear some responsibility!
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Old 21st Jul 2009, 10:11
  #114 (permalink)  
 
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Oh for goodness sake! Now we've apparently decided that this Captain's actions were directly attributable to his previous illness (even if we don't know what that illness was).
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Old 21st Jul 2009, 11:22
  #115 (permalink)  
 
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Christ!...

Some of the things I`ve read here make me think that some people have absolutely no idea of what it means to have authority or to be in charge.

It´s not just about power…it`s about responsability...

And it is more of a burden than a privilege...

So, I`m the captain. I`m the one. I have power. I decide. And that`s that.

Team effort? Rubbish! The billybobs in the back waggling around with mealtrays and pots of coffee? Part of a team? No way, they aren`t even my equals…

The kids that sit on my right with three stripes on their shoulder? Not yet on my level but, if they pay close attention during the time they (fortunately for them) spend with me, they might learn something. And, who knows, some of them may, one day, be worthy of sitting in a left-hand seat like me…

CRM? Another heap of trendy rubbish…just like that team effort thing…

OK, on a very happy day I might ask one of them for his/her opinion. But, rest assured, if it doesn`t go along with mine I will declare him totally uncooperative and kick him / her out of my plane. Speaking of which I fully expect to have every single order, wish or whim, on my behalf, fully carried out with no issues raised, or else I´ll find that I cannot trust him and I´ll activate the kicking procedure again…

It doesn`t really matter if they may not trust me…

It doesn`t really matter if I´m eventually breaking rules…

It doesn`t really matter if, by means of insufficient information, lack of common sense or plain bad judgement, my poor decision making may be placing them in discomfort, a tight spot or even in danger…

And the passengers? What about them? If they don´t agree with my views they can always stay on the ground. All of them. Even if my airline goes down the drain, I lose my job and my flying is limited to a few rides in a flying club Cessna every Sunday, I will still be a capitan…

To the many, many sensible and decent captains on the block, my apologies for writing this. But I truly thought that commercial aviation in the 21st Century was well and truly past these issues…

Rather sad to find it isn`t, after all…
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Old 21st Jul 2009, 16:35
  #116 (permalink)  
 
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Toprotectandserve, you start off good...

It´s not just about power…it`s about responsability... (sic)

And it is more of a burden than a privilege...
And then...

......
OK, on a very happy day I might ask one of them for his/her opinion. But, rest assured, if it doesn`t go along with mine I will declare him totally uncooperative and kick him / her out of my plane. Speaking of which I fully expect to have every single order, wish or whim, on my behalf, fully carried out with no issues raised, or else I´ll find that I cannot trust him and I´ll activate the kicking procedure again…

It doesn`t really matter if they may not trust me…

It doesn`t really matter if I´m eventually breaking rules…

It doesn`t really matter if, by means of insufficient information, lack of common sense or plain bad judgement, my poor decision making may be placing them in discomfort, a tight spot or even in danger…

And the passengers? What about them? If they don´t agree with my views they can always stay on the ground. All of them. Even if my airline goes down the drain, I lose my job and my flying is limited to a few rides in a flying club Cessna every Sunday, I will still be a capitan…
Can also be perceived as "I'm the Captain of this 'yer mighty 747 and that mountain better move out of my way or I'll fly straight through it... I'm the Captain of a 747 for sake"

Don't get me wrong, I am a supporter of Captains authority and responsibility, it's the burden part you mention IMO is causing the outrage.

Part of the burden is accepting that you can and will be judged for your actions, you are fit (in all meanings of the word) to perform your actions, and that you can explain your actions after the fact with more than "I'm the Captain" and expecting that to be a free pass without having to provide a rational explanation as to your thought process at the time.

It's called discretion - Engine on fire - do what you like to have a happy ending - it's your right and time is of the essence.

Personal spat with a staff member - is it really worth "becoming famous" for?

It's your call, you are The Captain, after all.

And please don't make the assumption that all FO's are junior wet behind the ear pilots. There are plenty of valid reasons and situations where you will find more experienced FO's than you. Fortunately they believe in CRM.
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Old 21st Jul 2009, 16:39
  #117 (permalink)  
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Cue for a song again................
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Old 21st Jul 2009, 17:22
  #118 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by birrddog
And then...

Can also be perceived as "I'm the Captain of this 'yer mighty 747 and that mountain better move out of my way or I'll fly straight through it... I'm the Captain of a 747 for sake"
Birrdog,

I think there might have been just the tiniest element of irony in TPAS's message. Go back and read it again. I think you'll realise he's saying something entirely different......
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Old 21st Jul 2009, 17:34
  #119 (permalink)  
 
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Andy_s/TPAS, apologies if it appeared I was taking on the statement directly; that was not my intention.

Edit: Like my misinterpretation of the Irony, I was afraid others might have heartily agreed based upon some of the posts in this thread!
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Old 21st Jul 2009, 17:45
  #120 (permalink)  
 
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Totally deranged

Having read what "toprotectandserve " wrote I think he is mad, insane and should not have a buspass let alone control of an aircraft ( if he actually does ).


What does his "slightest whim " mean ? "Throw the passenger in 13c out of the door ( circumstances permitting) because he didn't look at me respectfully enough ? "

This ridiculous example should show that the captain's authority is limited, so no he doesn't have total authority/powers, just those which fall within normal laws.

There seem to be a surprising number of respondents who feel total unrestrained powers are/should be in order. My opinion is that these should be jettisoned down the same egress as the blue water.
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