United GRU-ORD Divert to MIA to Offload Purser
Warning Toxic!
Disgusted of Tunbridge
Disgusted of Tunbridge
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Hampshire, UK
Posts: 4,011
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The fact remains he was in charge of the flight, and if he felt his authority was no longer respected and the chain of command was broken, then at 600mph, there is no time to discuss it. Whatever, he chose to terminate the flight. It sounds like he had a right little rebellion going on in the cabin! He obviously felt he could not continue under such an atmosphere. There was obviously a big build up to this.
I doubt it has all been settled yet. The crew should have stuck with their responsibility to respond to reasonable commands and act as a crew. I am sure the behaviour of the whole crew will come under the spotlight as well. It wasn't for you to make a decision on what you perceived to be a 'judgement call'. Your responsibility was to do your darn job! Nobody will come out well from this. So what drove it to that situation where the Captain felt the flight could not safely continue? What was going on- was there a state of war across the flight deck door? Who can fly safely like that? We have seen an accident in the UK killing many which is fairly certainly a result of a furious row and atmosphere on the flight deck.
I doubt it has all been settled yet. The crew should have stuck with their responsibility to respond to reasonable commands and act as a crew. I am sure the behaviour of the whole crew will come under the spotlight as well. It wasn't for you to make a decision on what you perceived to be a 'judgement call'. Your responsibility was to do your darn job! Nobody will come out well from this. So what drove it to that situation where the Captain felt the flight could not safely continue? What was going on- was there a state of war across the flight deck door? Who can fly safely like that? We have seen an accident in the UK killing many which is fairly certainly a result of a furious row and atmosphere on the flight deck.
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: chicago
Posts: 62
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"Doing our darned jobs?"
We were doing our job...to bad the captain wasn't doing his. Yes, we should and we did/do fulfill our responsibility to reasonable commands. This captain was NOT reasonable. He was erratic in behavior and had volitile mood swings. He was mad he didn't get his "crew decs" 25 minutes after takeoff of a 11 hour flight. Our Purser complied with his request immediately...it seems that "immediately" wasn't fast enough for him. And actually, you're right, this isn't over yet. It is for the flight attendants and the 2 F/O's but not for the captain. He has lost his job and license has been sispended by the FAA upon futher investigation. United Airlines will NEVER trust him with a multimillion dollar aircraft and passengers again...ever. So, yes he terminated the flight as well as his own career. Our Purser on the other hand...is still flying, United Airlines backs her 110% as do her flying partners and the other 2 F/O's from our flight as well as system wide crew members...flight attendants and pilots alike.
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 18,579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Whatever, he chose to terminate the flight.
Your statement
The crew should have stuck with their responsibility to respond to reasonable commands and act as a crew.
Now I'm being told by someone with no apparent flying experience that I should know that one should be 'considering' a diversion when there is nothing closer than destination (747JJ). Who are these people? Flt-simmers run amok?
The whole episode is, in my opinion and BASED ON INFORMATION HERE, a sad 'aberation' by the Captain which has affected many. We will see.
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: In a far better place
Posts: 2,480
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There was definitely a more mature way to deal with the situation rather than putting passengers, cabin crew, and two F/O’s, who were the victims in this melodramatic soap opera, in the middle of such a petty squabble. It’s appears to be complex, and rather simple at the same, the skipper lost it, and I’ll wager the F/O’s were debating whether to take the crash axe out and rest it in their lap in case the captain really decided to go postal
Yes, without a doubt, there must be a chain of command starting with the left seat. Dealing with insubordination at FL350 is not the best place, unless safety is compromised. That’s why the Chief Pilot, Chief of In-flight, and Director of Operations have an office to hash out these issues. At the end of the day, I’m sure the phone patches would reveal that they wanted the jet to continue to ORD, unless there was a potential for the situation to escalate out beyond the scope of a safe operation. Who knows, perhaps the captain posed as a threat to safety, and Ops thought it better that this Bozo divert the jet.
Interesting project for the CRM Instructors
.
Yes, without a doubt, there must be a chain of command starting with the left seat. Dealing with insubordination at FL350 is not the best place, unless safety is compromised. That’s why the Chief Pilot, Chief of In-flight, and Director of Operations have an office to hash out these issues. At the end of the day, I’m sure the phone patches would reveal that they wanted the jet to continue to ORD, unless there was a potential for the situation to escalate out beyond the scope of a safe operation. Who knows, perhaps the captain posed as a threat to safety, and Ops thought it better that this Bozo divert the jet.
Interesting project for the CRM Instructors
.
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: chicago
Posts: 62
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"Warning Toxic??"
The ONLY thing toxic about this entire situation was/is the captain in question! I know...I was there and was working the flight. I must add, I also find your comments on this situation that you had no "first hand experience" of VERY toxic and ignorant.
Warning Toxic!
Disgusted of Tunbridge
Disgusted of Tunbridge
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Hampshire, UK
Posts: 4,011
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It takes two to tango. The situation was levitated up to a level it should not have reached. If that is indeed the final outcome, I feel sad for a career that has ended on a sour note. But I would be examining very carefully the atmosphere and attitudes prevailing on that flight. Whatever the situation, he had ultimate responsibility for safety on that flight, and he felt that he could not continue. It's all very well fingers pointing at the supposed culprit, but if I were a manager looking into this, I would want to know what the hell was going on that drove the situation to an unsustainable level.
I find it extraordinary you accuse me of toxicicity considering your personal comments aimed at others above here. You seem a little hysterical. I also think you should not be yapping away about this here. Is the incident positively closed?
I find it extraordinary you accuse me of toxicicity considering your personal comments aimed at others above here. You seem a little hysterical. I also think you should not be yapping away about this here. Is the incident positively closed?
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 18,579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Assuming we can take 'based on facts' as genuine, I think post #147 wraps this up very neatly.
- it appears thay do know?
Rainboe - give up. Its over - and I've seen posers dancing with themselves in front of a mirror. As far as we know, there was only one person who decided to divert the a/c, although the F/Os may well have agreed in the hope that they were getting off.
I would want to know what the hell was going on that drove the situation to an unsustainable level.
Rainboe - give up. Its over - and I've seen posers dancing with themselves in front of a mirror. As far as we know, there was only one person who decided to divert the a/c, although the F/Os may well have agreed in the hope that they were getting off.
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: chicago
Posts: 62
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hysterical??
I'm not hysterical, I'm very irritated at the ignorance of person's such as yourself that "are so sure that tensions were high etc." They were not, that is why this diversion was such a shock to all of us, including our Purser. You know, it IS possible that the captain was 100 % wrong in his judgement and put the rest of us in jepordy on a number of levels. And, yes...case is closed for us...the crew.
Join Date: May 2009
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 62
Posts: 212
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Without the full details of this case it is impossible to make a fair judgement on these events.
The case does however beg the question, is the command structure on a modern intercontinental commercial jet a collegiate democracy? I am sure some would have it so but the exigencies of command and safety require, no demand, that the Captain has overall authority.
What can be expected of the Captain is a form of benign dictatorship strengthened by a civil and a mutually respectful relationship between him/her and the crew. The respect is built both ways based upon demonstrated competence and fitness for duty.
Clearly these factors broke down in this case.
The case does however beg the question, is the command structure on a modern intercontinental commercial jet a collegiate democracy? I am sure some would have it so but the exigencies of command and safety require, no demand, that the Captain has overall authority.
What can be expected of the Captain is a form of benign dictatorship strengthened by a civil and a mutually respectful relationship between him/her and the crew. The respect is built both ways based upon demonstrated competence and fitness for duty.
Clearly these factors broke down in this case.
Warning Toxic!
Disgusted of Tunbridge
Disgusted of Tunbridge
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Hampshire, UK
Posts: 4,011
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well I'm sorry. IF you were on the flight, you may be unaware what was going on if you were in a different section. Tensions were high- high enough that the Captain felt a diversion was necessary. I'd place a bet if I were a betting man that attitudes throughout the crew were rather high as well. This did not come out of nowhere.
And do try and not come flinging abuse at people here. You score 2 on this page alone!
Namib, that sounds good- it is the regular line. However, at 600mph, there is no time for a discussion and a mutual hug. It only works when one person is in charge and his commands are obeyed without a discussion every time. One person in charge, one person bears a responsibility. But, the rest of the crew are also responsible for the safety and security of the flight, and that means working with everybody else.
And do try and not come flinging abuse at people here. You score 2 on this page alone!
Namib, that sounds good- it is the regular line. However, at 600mph, there is no time for a discussion and a mutual hug. It only works when one person is in charge and his commands are obeyed without a discussion every time. One person in charge, one person bears a responsibility. But, the rest of the crew are also responsible for the safety and security of the flight, and that means working with everybody else.
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: chicago
Posts: 62
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Enough
A) attitude(s) were NOT high...the captain's was. I saw the interactions.
B) Yeah, this pretty much did come out of no where...that's what makes this whole situation so bizarre. There's a solid reason this captain is no longer employed by United Airlines.
C) I'm not "flinging abuse" at anyone.
P.S. so glad you can count.
B) Yeah, this pretty much did come out of no where...that's what makes this whole situation so bizarre. There's a solid reason this captain is no longer employed by United Airlines.
C) I'm not "flinging abuse" at anyone.
P.S. so glad you can count.
Join Date: May 2009
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 62
Posts: 212
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
C) I'm not "flinging abuse" at anyone.
P.S. so glad you can count.
P.S. so glad you can count.
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: chicago
Posts: 62
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
NamibFox
No, this is not aggressive... apologies if it's taken that way. Just tired of the false accusations against our Purser who by a lot of folks here, seem to be the cause of our diversion and she was not. This is still quite a shock to all of us involved and it is upsetting. To be on an aircraft as a crew member and not to feel safe with the captain in charge is a very terrifying feeling and you feel very vunerable with absolutely no control. Thanks to the efforts of our Purser, we were able to "keep it together" until we landed.
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: OZ
Posts: 120
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
mmm
Rainboe, if the Captain has been suspended and the F/A hasnt, what does that tell you?
In fact why dont you print this thread off, take it to the CFI of your 'virtual airline', and let him read your replies to the posts of 'based on facts', and see how long it takes them to ground you and send you on a CRM course.
In fact why dont you print this thread off, take it to the CFI of your 'virtual airline', and let him read your replies to the posts of 'based on facts', and see how long it takes them to ground you and send you on a CRM course.
Warning Toxic!
Disgusted of Tunbridge
Disgusted of Tunbridge
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Hampshire, UK
Posts: 4,011
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If he is 'suspended', that means whilst an investigation is rightfully ongoing into his decision. Therefore, it is not completed. If he has been dismissed, then that is very sad, but a fact of life, and the investigation is over. An unpleasant end to a career (IF that is the case). But it would be interesting to examine it and see what provoked a minor situation into a loss of control. This is very often where other parties also have some explaining to do. Also needing examining is the role of the 2 copilots and what steps they took to calm the situation. It could be the Captain had a severe problem and the rest of the crew were totally without blame. Then it goes back to licensing and medical matters. Command decisions ultimately need to be justified, but onboard, they are to be obeyed unless plainly wrong.
What's the rest of that crap about a 'virtual airline'? From a PPL? Really!
What's the rest of that crap about a 'virtual airline'? From a PPL? Really!
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Switzerland, Singapore
Posts: 1,309
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BoF, thanks for that interesting piece of information. Don't fight with them, they will never get it. The majority gets the picture. I think the case is closed, and it's a relieve. I posted very early in the thread and came to the exact same conclusion.
The bigger problem that still remains: Imagine how many over-ego's are still flying around and treat their crew (FO, CAs, ground handling) still the same way. If you watch this threat closely, there is still a big number of (older) captains around that think they are so much better than all the rest - although they are just older.
It's really a pain to see how these younger crew members suffer from such superiors. Mostly these are long haul crews, and as some mentioned, these are really terrible rotations. It doesn't have to go as far as a diversion. Alone the mood in the cockpit/aircraft/bar is so bad.
Well, we could argue, having a good atmosphere in the cockpit is a luxury we cannot afford (for the sake of good hierarchy?). But it goes much further, and finally everyday's safety is impaired.
I tell my crew several times every day, that they should never assume that I'm the "boss", that they are equaly to me, that they are my best life insurance. That they are the hands, the eyes and the ears of my crew. I guess I have to tell them, because other captains give them the opposite feeling.
I think it's also no coincidence that this incident happened in a major airline. And in the US. These well established big airlines still afford and promote an working atmosphere that is - mildly spoken - not the best environment. This is one of the reason why those airline do not have a better safety margin above newer airlines with less sophisticated safety structures, less staff per labor unit and lower pay. btw Captains like the one in this case tend not only to frustate their own staff, but they also decide often against their own company, which isn't profitable at all. A captain like this in a budget airline would never have been hired in the first place.
Dani
The bigger problem that still remains: Imagine how many over-ego's are still flying around and treat their crew (FO, CAs, ground handling) still the same way. If you watch this threat closely, there is still a big number of (older) captains around that think they are so much better than all the rest - although they are just older.
It's really a pain to see how these younger crew members suffer from such superiors. Mostly these are long haul crews, and as some mentioned, these are really terrible rotations. It doesn't have to go as far as a diversion. Alone the mood in the cockpit/aircraft/bar is so bad.
Well, we could argue, having a good atmosphere in the cockpit is a luxury we cannot afford (for the sake of good hierarchy?). But it goes much further, and finally everyday's safety is impaired.
I tell my crew several times every day, that they should never assume that I'm the "boss", that they are equaly to me, that they are my best life insurance. That they are the hands, the eyes and the ears of my crew. I guess I have to tell them, because other captains give them the opposite feeling.
I think it's also no coincidence that this incident happened in a major airline. And in the US. These well established big airlines still afford and promote an working atmosphere that is - mildly spoken - not the best environment. This is one of the reason why those airline do not have a better safety margin above newer airlines with less sophisticated safety structures, less staff per labor unit and lower pay. btw Captains like the one in this case tend not only to frustate their own staff, but they also decide often against their own company, which isn't profitable at all. A captain like this in a budget airline would never have been hired in the first place.
Dani
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: europe
Posts: 180
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rainboe,
As long as the captain and the purser weren't pulling each others hair out his diversion seems somewhat unnecessary to say the least.
This is a multicrewed flightdeck on a plane flying on autopilot, it is not that the captain has to fence off the purser while he is struggeling to keep it in the air at 600mph.....
The mere fact that ANYONE, regardless of rank, diverts for not getting his paperwork on time seems like a very wrong way of personally getting back at someone.
As long as the captain and the purser weren't pulling each others hair out his diversion seems somewhat unnecessary to say the least.
This is a multicrewed flightdeck on a plane flying on autopilot, it is not that the captain has to fence off the purser while he is struggeling to keep it in the air at 600mph.....
The mere fact that ANYONE, regardless of rank, diverts for not getting his paperwork on time seems like a very wrong way of personally getting back at someone.
Warning Toxic!
Disgusted of Tunbridge
Disgusted of Tunbridge
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Hampshire, UK
Posts: 4,011
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Not good, I think! Certainly not my way or to be encouraged. Whilst we can see the disadvantages of swinging one way, this is too far the other way!
Please can non-professional pilots, PPLs and SLFs refrain from passing opinion here!
I tell my crew several times every day, that they should never assume that I'm the "boss", that they are equaly to me, that they are my best life insurance. That they are the hands, the eyes and the ears of my crew. I guess I have to tell them, because other captains give them the opposite feeling.