United GRU-ORD Divert to MIA to Offload Purser
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Warwick
Age: 58
Posts: 43
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Quite frankly I am astounded by the opinions of some captains here that think that this captain was justified in diverting the flight. Now I know it has been said that we don't know the full story, but these opinions are based on what is in this thread, so I shall do the same.
As a pax, I do not want to be incovenienced by a diversion just because the captain has a hissy fit and feels that the purser has undermined his authority. I understand that if there is a danger to the aircraft, then you dirvert, but in there situation, the only danger was the captain's hubris.
Having been in middle management with a top international firm, I have dealt with many issues with staff over the years. If you're in charge/the boss you get respect and obedience from managing your staff not bossing them. If there is an issue, you pull that person aside and deal with it or schedule an appointment with HR if it merits it. You do not start a row in front of other staff or suddenly call an event off, just because you feel that your authority has been questioned, you get through the event and deal with it after.
Now I know sales & marketing isn't the same as flying a plane and there are more immediate issues and lives at stake, but I do struggle to see that a diversion was necessary and feel that the captain could have carried on and dealt with this at destination with head office/HR if needed and put in a report. The fact that he had a tantrum and overreacted would worry me that he may be prone to making other irrational decisions if something annoyed him.
As a pax, I do not want to be incovenienced by a diversion just because the captain has a hissy fit and feels that the purser has undermined his authority. I understand that if there is a danger to the aircraft, then you dirvert, but in there situation, the only danger was the captain's hubris.
Having been in middle management with a top international firm, I have dealt with many issues with staff over the years. If you're in charge/the boss you get respect and obedience from managing your staff not bossing them. If there is an issue, you pull that person aside and deal with it or schedule an appointment with HR if it merits it. You do not start a row in front of other staff or suddenly call an event off, just because you feel that your authority has been questioned, you get through the event and deal with it after.
Now I know sales & marketing isn't the same as flying a plane and there are more immediate issues and lives at stake, but I do struggle to see that a diversion was necessary and feel that the captain could have carried on and dealt with this at destination with head office/HR if needed and put in a report. The fact that he had a tantrum and overreacted would worry me that he may be prone to making other irrational decisions if something annoyed him.
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Desert
Posts: 69
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A full enviroment of CRM like in that flight:
YouTube - Crimson Tide Re-Edit: Gene Hackman & Denzel Washington Argue
YouTube - Crimson Tide Re-Edit: Gene Hackman & Denzel Washington Argue
How do we know he had a 'tantrum'?
Join Date: May 2004
Location: SINGAPORE
Posts: 297
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
there are two breakdowns here, and unfortunately ego and emotions got in the way.
1. the purser refused to carry out a direct command and insulted the captain
by shoving the gd under the door
2. the captain was pissed off enough to divert HIS a/c
the rest is pheriperal mumbo jumbo and insinuation.
at these times, if one person backs down, everyone wins.
the purser could have complied, and then written the captain up.
the captain could have done the same, and if serious enough, called up the feds to meet the a/c and register a case of insurbordination.
1. the purser refused to carry out a direct command and insulted the captain
by shoving the gd under the door
2. the captain was pissed off enough to divert HIS a/c
the rest is pheriperal mumbo jumbo and insinuation.
at these times, if one person backs down, everyone wins.
the purser could have complied, and then written the captain up.
the captain could have done the same, and if serious enough, called up the feds to meet the a/c and register a case of insurbordination.
Guest
Posts: n/a
One earlier poster made, a tongue in cheek, comment about "a lover's tiff".
Obviously nobody is implying that this was a factor in this case but it does draw out one important CRM point. Romance has no place in the workplace, particularly in safety critical and demanding environments like an airliner moving at some 600 mph through congested skies.
I am not an airline pilot but to my eternal shame as a mere PPL I have literally lost it with a passenger, my then girlfriend, while flying just outside Class D airspace on a long cross country flight. The niggle factor got to me and white faced with rage I found myself 800 feet below my altitude and some 30 degress of course. I had completely lost situational awareness. I should not have flown at all that day and certainly not with her.
Rage of the cold white type is a form of madness and I believe it can overtake anyone. I think we should cut this Captain some slack.
It shouldn't but it could happen to anybody. We are all humans, airline Captains included, with the emotional and physical foibles and baggage that goes with that.
Obviously nobody is implying that this was a factor in this case but it does draw out one important CRM point. Romance has no place in the workplace, particularly in safety critical and demanding environments like an airliner moving at some 600 mph through congested skies.
I am not an airline pilot but to my eternal shame as a mere PPL I have literally lost it with a passenger, my then girlfriend, while flying just outside Class D airspace on a long cross country flight. The niggle factor got to me and white faced with rage I found myself 800 feet below my altitude and some 30 degress of course. I had completely lost situational awareness. I should not have flown at all that day and certainly not with her.
Rage of the cold white type is a form of madness and I believe it can overtake anyone. I think we should cut this Captain some slack.
It shouldn't but it could happen to anybody. We are all humans, airline Captains included, with the emotional and physical foibles and baggage that goes with that.
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Sweden
Age: 63
Posts: 218
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sheesh, 16 pages in this forum & in the CC forum 1. Says alot really
Says alot really
NOone give the damn of the SLF get the final outcome
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Thailand
Age: 61
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
>RDR
there are two breakdowns here, and unfortunately ego and emotions got in the way.
1. the purser refused to carry out a direct command and insulted the captain
by shoving the gd under the door
2. the captain was pissed off enough to divert HIS a/c
1. What happens if the direct command cannot be carried out because it contradicts SOP (which was mentioned to have happened here).
2. Why does he have to wait 6 hours to divert the aircraft ?
It appears to me (being frequent long haul SLF) that on a long haul flight the busiest times for the CC are the first couple of hours and the last couple of hours. It seems reasonable for the flight crew to realise this and schedule paperwork (and other matters) around that.
there are two breakdowns here, and unfortunately ego and emotions got in the way.
1. the purser refused to carry out a direct command and insulted the captain
by shoving the gd under the door
2. the captain was pissed off enough to divert HIS a/c
1. What happens if the direct command cannot be carried out because it contradicts SOP (which was mentioned to have happened here).
2. Why does he have to wait 6 hours to divert the aircraft ?
It appears to me (being frequent long haul SLF) that on a long haul flight the busiest times for the CC are the first couple of hours and the last couple of hours. It seems reasonable for the flight crew to realise this and schedule paperwork (and other matters) around that.
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: us
Posts: 694
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Airbubba wrote:
If the reason he gave to Miami Center for his diversion indicated that there was an unexplained safety issue with the flight, information on the diversion could have been passed on to the Department of Homeland Security's Operations Center. The more enigmatic or cryptic the explanation, the more likely that flags would be raised. (If the flight was indeed met at the gate by police and TSA officials, you can draw your own conclusions on whether the diversion was reported to the DHS Operations Center.)
On receiving this information, the DHS Operations Center may, in turn, have generated an alert to its network, or part of its network, about an incoming international flight requesting a diversion to Miami with an unexplained safety issue. (When the incident was resolved, a subsequent message would update and close out the incident.)
For the TSA to conclude that the captain's reason for diverting was spurious or mis-leading, the consequences could be dire.
(Post 9/11, if I recall correctly, as a condition of re-opening KDCA, all pilots flying flights in and out of the airport had to be specially vetted as not posing a potential security threat, and get on an approved list by the government before they were allowed in the cockpit of a KDCA flight.)
I'm not sure whether the captain, L.S., was 'suspended' but it does appear in the UAL scheduling computer that his next trip was dropped.
And there are several ways you can be removed from flying by the feds, they can pull your license, take your medical or put you in TSA 'no fly' status until you prove fit to fly. I've seen all of the above in recent years after various incidents.
And there are several ways you can be removed from flying by the feds, they can pull your license, take your medical or put you in TSA 'no fly' status until you prove fit to fly. I've seen all of the above in recent years after various incidents.
On receiving this information, the DHS Operations Center may, in turn, have generated an alert to its network, or part of its network, about an incoming international flight requesting a diversion to Miami with an unexplained safety issue. (When the incident was resolved, a subsequent message would update and close out the incident.)
For the TSA to conclude that the captain's reason for diverting was spurious or mis-leading, the consequences could be dire.
(Post 9/11, if I recall correctly, as a condition of re-opening KDCA, all pilots flying flights in and out of the airport had to be specially vetted as not posing a potential security threat, and get on an approved list by the government before they were allowed in the cockpit of a KDCA flight.)
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: New England, USA
Posts: 52
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The Captain has absolute authority of the a/c, and he must always uphold the best interests of the company or agency who entrusted that authority to him.
To consider the first part of that sentence without also considering the second part is disingenuous, simplistic, or both. (If you think that a finger is pointing at the "case closed" crowd, among others, you would not be mistaken.)
To consider the first part of that sentence without also considering the second part is disingenuous, simplistic, or both. (If you think that a finger is pointing at the "case closed" crowd, among others, you would not be mistaken.)
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Patterson, NY
Age: 66
Posts: 436
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It is his aircraft... it is not
I see a bit of back and forth about whose aircraft it is. I think we're playing with
semantics here. It is the Captain's aircraft as far as responsibility, command and flight is concerned. As long as he/she is on the aircraft. Aside from those specific items, the aircraft is, and will always remain, the property and ownership of the airliner for which the Captain works.
semantics here. It is the Captain's aircraft as far as responsibility, command and flight is concerned. As long as he/she is on the aircraft. Aside from those specific items, the aircraft is, and will always remain, the property and ownership of the airliner for which the Captain works.
Join Date: May 2005
Location: uk
Posts: 573
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It is not his aircraft, he is in charge but the aircraft belongs to the airline. The Captain also has to follow orders from it's managment in operational matters ( as long as safety is not involved) , and this can also happen inflight. Via ACARS , the company might order you to divert for whatever reason somewhere and you as captain if safety is not involved will comply.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: US
Posts: 251
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
1. the purser refused to carry out a direct command and insulted the captain
by shoving the gd under the door
by shoving the gd under the door
2. the captain was pissed off enough to divert HIS a/c
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Esher, Surrey
Posts: 466
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You make a fair point in the last paragraph Rainboe and I am sure it will happen.
Flying aeroplanes does not make you a good leader. I am reasonably sure that leadership is not a prime measure, when promoting a first officer to command. It would never have been in the job role. Hiding behind the law of the sky, does not promote good leadership skills.
In most other jobs, leaders are selected because of their leadership skills. This is true for cabin crew. is it the same for flight crew?
Flying aeroplanes does not make you a good leader. I am reasonably sure that leadership is not a prime measure, when promoting a first officer to command. It would never have been in the job role. Hiding behind the law of the sky, does not promote good leadership skills.
In most other jobs, leaders are selected because of their leadership skills. This is true for cabin crew. is it the same for flight crew?
The question was "Who wants to be a pilot with BA?"
Lots of hands went up. The reply was :-
" Well we are not looking for pilots but are looking for those who can manage a multi £M piece of equipment, CC, passengers etc. We will then teach them to fly"
That made a few of them think!