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United GRU-ORD Divert to MIA to Offload Purser

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United GRU-ORD Divert to MIA to Offload Purser

Old 19th Jul 2009, 08:30
  #61 (permalink)  
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Tx600, quite! People forget you are going at nearly 600mph. There is no time to have a discussion about 'command philosophy', 'reasonableness' or anything else. At that speed, entertaining guests up there is out of the question, and discussions of 'should you obey this command?' are also off the menu. Whilst it would appear the reaction is extreme, I hesitate to criticise anybody's actions. The investigation will examine it far better than the Pprune Courts Martial Board! It's too easy to fire off opinions from a keyboard (anonymously), unaware of most of the facts!
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Old 19th Jul 2009, 10:17
  #62 (permalink)  
 
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I agree with Rainboe. There have been cases that I have been tempted to take similar action with a member of cabin crew. Luckily though I've managed to avert such extreme measures but have had some very serious words with these self appointed "Cabin Captains" after and sometimes during the flight.
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Old 19th Jul 2009, 10:50
  #63 (permalink)  
 
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The Captain has absolute authority from accepting the aircraft, until handing it back to the relevant ground staff. The said Captain in this incident will now have to justify the actions taken, to whoever will be reviewing what went on.

Just because you have absolute authority, it does not follow that all decisions make with that authority, will be right.
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Old 19th Jul 2009, 11:01
  #64 (permalink)  
 
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There is an account that the flight was met in Miami by police and TSA staff, and that the captain declared that the purser was a terrorist. Third hand account to be sure, although presumably the captain had given some reason to ATC for why he was landing in Miami. (One test of the accuracy of this particular account would be if the plane was indeed met by police and TSA.)

For the account narrative, see post 40 or 41 here:
UA842 [GRU-ORD] Diversion to MIA on July 13 - Page 3 - FlyerTalk Forums
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Old 19th Jul 2009, 11:32
  #65 (permalink)  
 
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Last time I read the law....the Captain is Boss.

He made a decision and either will be supported by management or will be taken to task. Either way....the decision upon "HIS" action will made just as he made a decision on the "Purser's" action. There can only be one "Boss" in a crew.....and as much as some Cabin Crew hate it....they are Crew and not "Boss".

Not every "Boss" rise to the level of ability that all should aspire to....and in this case the management review will determine the situation in this bit of black comedy.
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Old 19th Jul 2009, 13:23
  #66 (permalink)  
 
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I've had to deal with something similar a couple of times.

I suspect that this had nothing to do with a gen dec, and that it was just the fuse for what was very likely an ongoing dispute.

There are some pursers/cabin managers/number one's who have some major issues with authority. In fact, I'm not sure which is worse - 'the sassy gay guy' or 'the don't talk to me 'case I'm so precious female'.

Nobody seems to be prepared to accept an instruction anymore - everyone is just far too important starring is their own movies.

I remember a story from a BA flight some years ago (trans-atlantic) ... when the flight crew were filling in the techlog at the end of the sector, they noticed (from the cabin defect log) that 2 BCFs has been discharged in the cabin. This was news to the captain, and when asked, the purser told him that she was more than cabaple of dealing with the in-flight toilet fire without reference to him !!!
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Old 19th Jul 2009, 13:36
  #67 (permalink)  
 
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well, looks like captains wish to be handed over the dec immediatly was completly irrelevant (of course, I could be wrong, but the odds are...)

I witnessed a very similar situation in a wide body cockpit of a major airline once. The captain refused to talk to the senior attendant. He talked (in presence of the senior) to the FO, the FO had to tell the senior, the senior replied, the FO had to narrate it to captain.

Let me guess: The captain was near his 60's.

These guys should just go. They never have understood CRM. Authority doesn't mean despotism. You can only order your subordinates if you understand them. Go and command an infantry platoon, if you don't believe me. These soldiers would just walk away giggling.

Dani
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Old 19th Jul 2009, 13:53
  #68 (permalink)  
 
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Let me guess: The captain was near his 60's.

These guys should just go. They never have understood CRM

I can assure you that good CRM has nothing to do with age. Many youngsters think they know it all and dont need any help.

As they gain experience they may begin to see the whole picture.

This could even apply to you!.
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Old 19th Jul 2009, 14:16
  #69 (permalink)  
 
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Let me guess: The captain was near his 60's.

These guys should just go. They never have understood CRM.
Are you serious?
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Old 19th Jul 2009, 15:58
  #70 (permalink)  
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There is an account that the flight was met in Miami by police and TSA staff, and that the captain declared that the purser was a terrorist.
Flying the IGS for Pan Am out of TXL we were taught the difference between a German purser and a terrorist - you can negotiate with a terrorist.

Here's the track and flight plan of the divert:

FlightAware > Live Flight Tracker > United Air Lines Inc. #842 > 13-Jul-2009 > SBGR-KMIA

I do wonder why they would go to MIA instead of MCO, especially since the original route was over ORL. MCO has pretty much the same tactical assets as MIA from my experience, I've been based at both places over the years. Of course, at that time of night, you usually get directs in U.S. airspace anyway so routing was probably not an issue.
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Old 19th Jul 2009, 16:39
  #71 (permalink)  
 
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Airbubba, given the security controls in place these days, would you not have to assert some substantive reason for needing to land in Miami, where your airline no longer has a station. Otherwise, you might see fighters scrambled by a suspicious ATC.
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Old 19th Jul 2009, 18:43
  #72 (permalink)  
 
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Dani - most Captains of 60 or thereabouts nowadays, flew with many characters in the LHS to whom CRM stood for "Captain's Right Mate" and would not tolerate any conversation, unless instigated by them first.
CRM has come a long way since then, but is certainly not perfect.
Your posting hints at other agendas - perhaps you need another CRM course?
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Old 19th Jul 2009, 18:43
  #73 (permalink)  
 
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I can assure you that good CRM has nothing to do with age.
That is correct: There are also young guys who do not have a concept of good CRM. It's as always, biggest problem is the human factor. Everyone learns to fly, but not everyone can learn to handle people.

If there is not an important part of the story missing, I would say, this was the last flight of this captain - 60 or not.

Dani
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Old 19th Jul 2009, 19:50
  #74 (permalink)  
 
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CRM

While the measure to offload the purser seems somewhat drastic, I am sure that we do not have the full picture and all the details as to what happened. But as some contributors have implied, there is more to this than meets the eye.

It is funny how the concept of CRM has started to degenrate to a weapon for anti-authority mob both in the cabin and cockpit. The same lot seems to forget that there is only one person in charge on an aircraft: Captain or Commander. Some decisions are not subject to discussion and there are situations where the Captain does not have to explain his crew his actions, no time for example.

A crew is a team, but a team without a leader will be reduced to riff raff without direction. That is why there is a leader in the team and why conducting a flight operation is not a democratic decision making process where all points of view must be heard and then subject to a popular vote.

I have met people that have no concept of CRM and task sharing on all sides of aviation so lack of CRM is certainly not restricted so 60+ Captains. Most of the over 60 something Captains I know are actually quite good on CRM as they have the tolarance to take in the misgivings of the younger generation of aviation professionals and theire sometimes misguided ideas of managing a flight.
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Old 19th Jul 2009, 20:39
  #75 (permalink)  
 
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UAL has ops in MIA

Do not understand the debate over MIA v MCO. UA has mainline ops in MIA as well as MCO.
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Old 19th Jul 2009, 20:41
  #76 (permalink)  
 
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The egos at work in this thread are breathtaking

Gentlemen, Obviously, the PIC is legally responsible for and empowered to act in (almost) any way needed for safe operation the flight. Nobody is questioning that.

But has it occurred that simply because one has a legal right to do X, that doesn't automatically make X right, correct, sensible or even sane in every situation?

Given the information available, this was clearly a very poor decision by what appears to be a troubled person, who probably ought not be responsible for hundreds of passengers right now.
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Old 19th Jul 2009, 20:41
  #77 (permalink)  
 
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Effective leadership requires qualities and characteristics which I believe are usually the exact opposite of those that people imagine leaders ought to possess.
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Old 19th Jul 2009, 20:51
  #78 (permalink)  
 
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Some readily confuse leadership with management, and use the two terms interchangeably. A leader may manage, but a manager seldom leads, that is why he/she is a manager.
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Old 19th Jul 2009, 20:56
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Effective leadership requires qualities and characteristics which I believe are usually the exact opposite of those that people imagine leaders ought to possess.
I sense that I'm going off topic here, but the catch all phase above. (my bolding), does not fit my experience.

Those in authority in my experience vary much. My sense is that once they are faced with huge responsibilities under pressure day after day, they respond sucessfully with good CRM.

When they are first put into a role of authority they tend to excercise that trait before CRM.

I rarely see poor CRM at the highest levels of responsibility. I tend to see poor CRM more often in so called straw bosses.
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Old 19th Jul 2009, 21:02
  #80 (permalink)  
 
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Oilhead, any United flights out of Miami are code-shares (e.g., US Airways), or Shuttle America. United ceased flying its own planes to and from Miami on June 3, 2009. United had steadily reduced its service, and, at the end, it was two flights a day to IAD, two to ORD, and one to DEN.
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