United GRU-ORD Divert to MIA to Offload Purser
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Dear BOAC. 9000 some post and 737 on your profile makes you credible? I think not. But it would explain your lack of knowlegde on long range operations or are you just ignorant by nature or are you just intimidated by younger Captains flying considerably larger aircraft than the aircraft type on your profile you once might or might not have flown?
As far as the diversion is concerned, I am pleased to read some first hand info on the matter.
As far as the diversion is concerned, I am pleased to read some first hand info on the matter.
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Please can non-professional pilots, PPLs and SLFs refrain from passing opinion here!
With respect to you Rainboe your comments here seem reasoned and well thought out but the last one makes you appear arrogant which undermines your case.
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Rainboe,
What would you have done on your flight if you asked me for something that you could have had 8 hours later, and, although not receiving the required 'thing' 1 minute ago, did indeed receive it under the door, (as was written) in the end?
From what was written by someone present and in the loop, it was during this time that the captain did not see (obviously nor did anyone else) that the paperwork had been slipped under the door, that he decided to divert.
Could you honestly imagine yourself doing that? It is utterly irrelevant if moods were high before, after, in another part of the plane, over ATC, or personally from your life due to an ingrown toe nail. It reminds me of not bringing your work home. I think as a pilot, that one should not bring problems to work, either.
Personally, since I equally 100% respect authority, and 100% demand respect by anyone I am working with as a simple civility of life (yes, even from a Captain or even the Queen), just as I 100% respect people in life, colleagues or not (it works for me every time with successful results), I can assure you that I would, with either a call to the FD, or a knock on the door, be telling you exactly what a disater you are to the flight, how you do not earn any respect by such angry and rushed demands and that you can forget any respect from me from the moment this aircraft touches down - bearing in mind I would respect you, per se, during the flight whilst I am under your 'command'. Allow me to expand...
Given that I did indeed place the paperwork under the door, and you made the angry, 'huffed' decision to divert during this time, I would also tell you that you have made huge, potentially tragic observational errors, along with impatience. Why? With your impatience, you failed to note that I had indeed placed the paperwork, as requested, ASAP, under your door, but in your fretted, OTT and non-thought-out manner, you made a decision. Is Captain decision making based on impatience, frustration, ego-feeding and lack of observation? I think that you are most certainly in agreement with me when I say "No". Do you miss EICAS messages too, when sulking? What about circuit breakers? Think about that.
Do you honestly think that you would do this? It doesn't matter if you're a Captain, or a Space Shuttle pilot. You do not act in this way. It is a disgrace to the profession. It is not right, or useful to discussion, to confuse 'respecting the Captain' with 'being human'. You are a human being and so is the FA. On 'your' plane, you are also a human, and so is the FA.
When you are frustrated, impatient and making rash decisions which have huge knock-on effects, you're not acting as a professional Captain who is demanding respect. You are also putting the flight in danger if this is how you act under pressure. You're acting like an assh*le who demands no respect at all for the reasons I am including in this post. Again, don't miss/mix the idea of 'I'm a Captain, do what I say' with 'If you're too busy, please do it ASAP...I respect you as a human and I am aware of how I present myself to the world and what effect my behaviour in this authoritive position has bewteen us on this plane'. Get it?
Could you imagine exactly the same circomstances but in a different situation? It could be with ATC, push-back workers, refuelers. Getting impatient beause you didn't receive your clearence? Not being allowed to have straight-in vectors because of something you can't be patient for elsewhere and having to hold 3 or 4 times at OCK? Having to wait for de-icing equipment? You would become frustrated, you would have a decrease in observational skills (such as this Captain not seeing that the paperwork had indeed been given to him during his rash decision) and you would perhaps start #1 engine in a rush and ingest somebody. Using your logic, the fact you're a Captain means that you can make rash decisions due to assh*le-ness, thus putting other innocent people outside the loop in danger.
The role of a person in charge is to have a self-awareness, followed by an awareness of how people see you. If you have this two-way channel awareness, you are able to make more intelligent decisions, and give orders and directions to those in the knowledge that they are happy to receieve them and work with you, as a Captain demanding respect in his role.
It is not everything I have written about above.
Perhaps, before you run into a brash, non-thought-out response causing a further misunderstanding and placing more people against you on this forum, resulting in a lack of observational skills regarding what I have written due to your frustration at my post and an unawareness of how people conceieve you, rather than trying to make it work for you to produce more successful communications and results, you would like to imagine this situation well and think about the ear-bashing I would rightly give you once we are on the ground and I am no longer under your authority; human to human. Also, about how you would have reacted, as a Captain who would have my utmost respect during the flight, having given you the papers ASAP but you not seeing them and making a very uninformed, unintelligent decision as 'Captain'.
I anxiously await your response, Rainboe.
(p.s - I had to write this since I was getting more fidgety each time I read one of your posts. Feel better now, having thought through my words).
What would you have done on your flight if you asked me for something that you could have had 8 hours later, and, although not receiving the required 'thing' 1 minute ago, did indeed receive it under the door, (as was written) in the end?
From what was written by someone present and in the loop, it was during this time that the captain did not see (obviously nor did anyone else) that the paperwork had been slipped under the door, that he decided to divert.
Could you honestly imagine yourself doing that? It is utterly irrelevant if moods were high before, after, in another part of the plane, over ATC, or personally from your life due to an ingrown toe nail. It reminds me of not bringing your work home. I think as a pilot, that one should not bring problems to work, either.
Personally, since I equally 100% respect authority, and 100% demand respect by anyone I am working with as a simple civility of life (yes, even from a Captain or even the Queen), just as I 100% respect people in life, colleagues or not (it works for me every time with successful results), I can assure you that I would, with either a call to the FD, or a knock on the door, be telling you exactly what a disater you are to the flight, how you do not earn any respect by such angry and rushed demands and that you can forget any respect from me from the moment this aircraft touches down - bearing in mind I would respect you, per se, during the flight whilst I am under your 'command'. Allow me to expand...
Given that I did indeed place the paperwork under the door, and you made the angry, 'huffed' decision to divert during this time, I would also tell you that you have made huge, potentially tragic observational errors, along with impatience. Why? With your impatience, you failed to note that I had indeed placed the paperwork, as requested, ASAP, under your door, but in your fretted, OTT and non-thought-out manner, you made a decision. Is Captain decision making based on impatience, frustration, ego-feeding and lack of observation? I think that you are most certainly in agreement with me when I say "No". Do you miss EICAS messages too, when sulking? What about circuit breakers? Think about that.
Do you honestly think that you would do this? It doesn't matter if you're a Captain, or a Space Shuttle pilot. You do not act in this way. It is a disgrace to the profession. It is not right, or useful to discussion, to confuse 'respecting the Captain' with 'being human'. You are a human being and so is the FA. On 'your' plane, you are also a human, and so is the FA.
When you are frustrated, impatient and making rash decisions which have huge knock-on effects, you're not acting as a professional Captain who is demanding respect. You are also putting the flight in danger if this is how you act under pressure. You're acting like an assh*le who demands no respect at all for the reasons I am including in this post. Again, don't miss/mix the idea of 'I'm a Captain, do what I say' with 'If you're too busy, please do it ASAP...I respect you as a human and I am aware of how I present myself to the world and what effect my behaviour in this authoritive position has bewteen us on this plane'. Get it?
Could you imagine exactly the same circomstances but in a different situation? It could be with ATC, push-back workers, refuelers. Getting impatient beause you didn't receive your clearence? Not being allowed to have straight-in vectors because of something you can't be patient for elsewhere and having to hold 3 or 4 times at OCK? Having to wait for de-icing equipment? You would become frustrated, you would have a decrease in observational skills (such as this Captain not seeing that the paperwork had indeed been given to him during his rash decision) and you would perhaps start #1 engine in a rush and ingest somebody. Using your logic, the fact you're a Captain means that you can make rash decisions due to assh*le-ness, thus putting other innocent people outside the loop in danger.
The role of a person in charge is to have a self-awareness, followed by an awareness of how people see you. If you have this two-way channel awareness, you are able to make more intelligent decisions, and give orders and directions to those in the knowledge that they are happy to receieve them and work with you, as a Captain demanding respect in his role.
It is not everything I have written about above.
Perhaps, before you run into a brash, non-thought-out response causing a further misunderstanding and placing more people against you on this forum, resulting in a lack of observational skills regarding what I have written due to your frustration at my post and an unawareness of how people conceieve you, rather than trying to make it work for you to produce more successful communications and results, you would like to imagine this situation well and think about the ear-bashing I would rightly give you once we are on the ground and I am no longer under your authority; human to human. Also, about how you would have reacted, as a Captain who would have my utmost respect during the flight, having given you the papers ASAP but you not seeing them and making a very uninformed, unintelligent decision as 'Captain'.
I anxiously await your response, Rainboe.
(p.s - I had to write this since I was getting more fidgety each time I read one of your posts. Feel better now, having thought through my words).
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Tonic, thank you so much for your post.
But to find captains yelling around being ridicoulous is a no-brainer. With my post I wanted to hint at the more subtle exageration of a captain's power in every day operation. It's far more common and in the end far more safety-relevant. I know of so many accidents where the CA or the FO didn't want to bring something up, just because they knew that the captain would have put him/her down.
Dani
But to find captains yelling around being ridicoulous is a no-brainer. With my post I wanted to hint at the more subtle exageration of a captain's power in every day operation. It's far more common and in the end far more safety-relevant. I know of so many accidents where the CA or the FO didn't want to bring something up, just because they knew that the captain would have put him/her down.
Dani
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But you have just levelled the playing field! When yoou ask for something to be done, it is likely you will be told to do it yourself!
My comment was in irritation at being rebuked by PPLs and young sim flyers who know nothing about what we are talking about, or the job itself.
So would you explicitly exclude anyone who may equally have relevant command experience i.e. army officers, naval captains, ex military pilots who don't fly commercially, ex commercial pilots etc?
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RoyHudd's post
The trouble with cabin crew is that they do not understand their place in the work hierarchy. In general, they consider themselves as equals of pilots. In human terms outside of work, yes. In professional terms, in the workplace, absolutely not. (Any more than doctors and nurses, lawyers and clerks, managers and secretaries, etc.)
The required qualifications, and level and duration of training required to achieve purser or wide-body pilot are in no way comparable. Not even close.
In this instance, the Captain was exercising his professional duties.
The required qualifications, and level and duration of training required to achieve purser or wide-body pilot are in no way comparable. Not even close.
In this instance, the Captain was exercising his professional duties.
In a hospital, nurses call the shots (literally), as they are usually more experienced than the doctor on duty.
In the same way, a Seargent Major "runs" a regiment of soldiers even although he is non-com and he can give orders to officers ( it is dressed up as advice).
This is also personal experience.
If an experienced member of cabin crew wanted a flight aborted for any reason, his or her's view should take precidence over a captain.
I personally would be more interested in the views of any CC with ten years experience than any Captain with less years - and the Captain should take the same view.
In an emergency,unless it is so technical that CC cannot help, then the Captain has to call all the shots - otherwise, teamwork is the best way of problem-solving.
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Mmmm. I've known of a female cabin crew in SYD who caused a 747 to be cancelled 'because she could smell smoke'. Nobody else could. She had had a very pleasant stay with her boyfriend and didn't want to leave. A whole flight was cancelled for her. I think not!
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BRE - a valid question and one that has been puzzling me for a while. Given that UA would know if xxx had scratched his backside from all the available data, it would be of great interest to plug this part of the unknown. 'Based on fact' - can you cast any light on what happened on the ground in MIA - as far as you were informed, anyway? Was there any 'meeting' between senior crew and F/Os and/or Captain? Was the purser 'marched' off by security?
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My comment was in irritation at being rebuked by PPLs and young sim flyers who know nothing about what we are talking about, or the job itself.
I was looking at this case and trying to find precedents where a contributory factor in a reported incident or accident may have been friction between the cabin and flying crew.
One case that does come to mind is the tragic Glen Stewart "November Oscar" incident. Tragic in the sense that the Captain, an honourable man and an excellent and diligent pilot (shown by his record), was driven to suicide by the injustice of what happened to him.
If my memory serves me correctly, a subtle underlying theme, in the many contributory causes, in that incident was the fact that the flying crew were dehydrated (one was prostrated by a stomach bug). It was suggested at the time that due to an earlier conflict with a member of the cabin crew, they (the flying crew) had received no coffee or liquid refreshment.
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why did the F/O's, airline ops and FAA allow hin to continue from MIA to ORD?
I guess after the offload of the senior, the capt calmed down and showed again as a normal human being. That's why it was sensible for United ops control to release the flight again.
Only after all reports had been recollected and all parties involved interrogated, the capt had to be grounded. Pretty much standard company procedure, me thinks.
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rainbow
Mmmm. I've known of a female cabin crew in SYD who caused a 747 to be cancelled 'because she could smell smoke'. Nobody else could. She had had a very pleasant stay with her boyfriend and didn't want to leave. A whole flight was cancelled for her. I think not!
I have been involved with health care and the forces before retirement, and my personal experience of both is that intelligent, experienced staff, can be more helpful in emergencies than seniority without experience.
I could pm you with harrowing examples.
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Originally Posted by Dani
Pretty much standard company procedure, me thinks.
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Irritation
My comment was in irritation at being rebuked by PPLs and young sim flyers who know nothing about what we are talking about, or the job itself.
We might know little or nothing about flying, but that does not mean we know nothing about other aspects of management or life which might share similarities with your career, so please do bear with us as it might save a life someday.
I would love it if people asked questions and were curious about my career, unfortunately it is not as "glamourous" as yours, but still equally meaningful.
Just my 2 bits with no prejudice.
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If an experienced member of cabin crew wanted a flight aborted for any reason, his or her's view should take precidence over a captain.
One must assume that the poster did not mean this literally because as this statement stands it is clearly preposterous!
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- I would hope not, unless a complete fabrication was delivered by the Captain to company!
I guess it was also easier to find a replacement for the senior (most probably within the existing crew) than finding a capt. Escpecially in a non-base airport like MIA.
Dani
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Had I been a revenue pax on this flight I would have been incandescent to find that my passage had been disrupted, apparently over a petty squabble concerning a piece of paper not critical to the safe operation of the flight. The Aircraft commanders legal authority aside, two words seem relevant here - 'reasonable' and 'proportionate'. Does anyone think this test was passed? Whether benevolent dictatorship or a team, I would be expecting a different outcome here