NTSB investigating possible nodding off of Northwest pilots
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No flak from the Orient!
I am amazed at the tolerance and forbearance of our far East bethrens!. Some months ago, some Korean Air pilots went NORDO in European Airspace with German fighters on their tails; they really copped some racist rants and flak. A couple of years ago one of their B737 landed on the taxiway in Akita, the hoo haa from the sky gods was thunderous. Now that the sky gods have plunged down into the doo doo, no "aha's 'and hint of schadenfrude! Think about that guys!
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The reason I suggested radios for FAs is that it gives another source of contact for ATC remote from the cockpit. ATC can't know why there is no response from the flight crew. Is the crew asleep or doing their emails or watching Debbie Does Delta, or just on the wrong frequency? Perhaps even ATC has the wrong call sign.
FlyingOfficerKite, I think ATC might not know Tracy by name (Debbie maybe) but they could call eg 'Delta Flight number 123 call sign ABC Boeing 747 departed wherever 2 hours ago for wherever. Please respond.' That should narrow it down. Note it's an emergency channel and should not normally be busy.
ProtectTheHornet, if it's ATC's stuff-up I presume they would pay Thunderbird 1's expenses. Anyway, how's TBird 1 going to wake the pilots when he gets there? Pump a few rounds through the cockpit?
IGh, the no voice system would be great but doesn't solve the distracted or asleep pilot problem.
Cheers, RA
FlyingOfficerKite, I think ATC might not know Tracy by name (Debbie maybe) but they could call eg 'Delta Flight number 123 call sign ABC Boeing 747 departed wherever 2 hours ago for wherever. Please respond.' That should narrow it down. Note it's an emergency channel and should not normally be busy.
ProtectTheHornet, if it's ATC's stuff-up I presume they would pay Thunderbird 1's expenses. Anyway, how's TBird 1 going to wake the pilots when he gets there? Pump a few rounds through the cockpit?
IGh, the no voice system would be great but doesn't solve the distracted or asleep pilot problem.
Cheers, RA
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SDF
I'm glad you understand my point. If you fine pilots for **** ups, pilots, WHO ARE CHEAP AS HELL, will actually work hard to not have to pay up.
In fact, you could give a pilot a BONUS for not one **** UP during a year. I bet that **** ups would be unheard of in the majors quite soon.
ITS ALL ABOUT MONEY...just remember that! am I allowed to say **** up on PPRUNE?
there's lots of british slang that I don't understand!
and RUTAN AROUND...Thunderbird one would simply cast a shadow on the cockpit...scare the hell out of most guys and if at night...shine a spotlight. OR Brains could come up with a sonic blaster to shoot a JOHN PHILIP SOUSA MARCH at 150db at the cockpit.
I'm glad you understand my point. If you fine pilots for **** ups, pilots, WHO ARE CHEAP AS HELL, will actually work hard to not have to pay up.
In fact, you could give a pilot a BONUS for not one **** UP during a year. I bet that **** ups would be unheard of in the majors quite soon.
ITS ALL ABOUT MONEY...just remember that! am I allowed to say **** up on PPRUNE?
there's lots of british slang that I don't understand!
and RUTAN AROUND...Thunderbird one would simply cast a shadow on the cockpit...scare the hell out of most guys and if at night...shine a spotlight. OR Brains could come up with a sonic blaster to shoot a JOHN PHILIP SOUSA MARCH at 150db at the cockpit.
Combine Operations
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This implies that with all the other warning bells and whistles there's nothing on the flight deck that alerts the crew to change frequencies?
It is standard for ATC to instruct the crew when to change frequency, and what is the next agency to call. The crew would normally know approximately when the change should come, so if there is no call from ATC at about that time, they would make the suggestion to change frequency. Immediately after changing frequency, the crew would call the new ATC unit.
The system works well, but only if the crew are awake, of course.
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Inertial navigation units have an autotune function which allows them to continually update their accuracy by tuning proximate navigation facilities (VORs) determined by reference to units' embedded geographical VOR database.
Would something along that line, call it 'autotune' be appropriate to engage above FL180 to ensure always being on the appropriate frequency? ATC handoff protocols and communication facility standardization, and I'm sure many other factors would have to be addressed, but the current system needs improvement. My hunch is that aircraft wandering out of ATC contact due to missed calls are daily occurrences that cause a lot of aggravation for controllers and create potentially disasterous hazards.
Another idea is to install an addressable aural alarm, similar to selcal, and always on, in all IFR aircraft. Controllers could activate the alarm, addressed to the specific aircraft by registration data, and alert pilots that contact has been lost. I think all pilots know how to find the right frequency if they are aware they are not on it.
Would something along that line, call it 'autotune' be appropriate to engage above FL180 to ensure always being on the appropriate frequency? ATC handoff protocols and communication facility standardization, and I'm sure many other factors would have to be addressed, but the current system needs improvement. My hunch is that aircraft wandering out of ATC contact due to missed calls are daily occurrences that cause a lot of aggravation for controllers and create potentially disasterous hazards.
Another idea is to install an addressable aural alarm, similar to selcal, and always on, in all IFR aircraft. Controllers could activate the alarm, addressed to the specific aircraft by registration data, and alert pilots that contact has been lost. I think all pilots know how to find the right frequency if they are aware they are not on it.
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For just the purpose of alerting the pilots, CPLDC is wide of the mark. I've seen a single leaky diode in the keyline of one VHF Comm kill the receive audio from all the Comms. Everything operated fine until the first time the faulty Comm was keyed. It resulted in NORDO for the rest of the flight. Indeed, it's possible this happened to the NW fright.
Most ATC high altitude facilities have Mode S, so it would be straightforward for them to encode an uplink bit to alert the crew of NORDO. The transponder in the aircraft would merely relay that discrete bit to the TCAS, which would need a software mod to sound the alarm.
This Mode S / TCAS route is completely isolated from VHF Comm audio, so provides a truly redundant system. Having the overhead speakers and headsets turned off will have no effect on the TCAS speaker audio.
Yes, softward mods to TCAS take time and money, but would be far more cost effective than scambling fighters.
GB
Most ATC high altitude facilities have Mode S, so it would be straightforward for them to encode an uplink bit to alert the crew of NORDO. The transponder in the aircraft would merely relay that discrete bit to the TCAS, which would need a software mod to sound the alarm.
This Mode S / TCAS route is completely isolated from VHF Comm audio, so provides a truly redundant system. Having the overhead speakers and headsets turned off will have no effect on the TCAS speaker audio.
Yes, softward mods to TCAS take time and money, but would be far more cost effective than scambling fighters.
GB
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Those of you discussing phones or radios for the cabin crew or automatic re-tuning radios for the pilots are missing the whole point (and showing a lack of understanding of the problem). It's about preventing the pilots not only falling asleep but being fatigued in the first place. Having some sort of time waster in the cockpit is fine on long sectors, but it's not as important as the crew being properly rested on a 24 hour (or close) pattern.
A pilot that is very tired or fatigued is dangerous even if awake. the issue is ensuring correct work pattern and limits, and getting those who are a little irresponsible about what time they go to bed before an early start to behave more responsibly - I remember having an FO who would whine incessantly (when he wasn't sleeping) about the fatigue inducing rosters, but I had heard him playing his X-box past midnight with a 4am report (we were part of a group in a house-share), and I have frequently seen crews staying up far too late on night stops or at staff parties when flying the next morning. Authorities and rostering/crewing departments have a role to play, but so do the crews.
A pilot that is very tired or fatigued is dangerous even if awake. the issue is ensuring correct work pattern and limits, and getting those who are a little irresponsible about what time they go to bed before an early start to behave more responsibly - I remember having an FO who would whine incessantly (when he wasn't sleeping) about the fatigue inducing rosters, but I had heard him playing his X-box past midnight with a 4am report (we were part of a group in a house-share), and I have frequently seen crews staying up far too late on night stops or at staff parties when flying the next morning. Authorities and rostering/crewing departments have a role to play, but so do the crews.
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cockpit Housekeeping "attention management"
Posted by Routn around, in message 603:
"... the no voice system would be great but doesn't solve the distracted or asleep pilot problem."
Agreed, that problem (distraction or human's "channelized attention") MUST be acknowledged as a TRAINING ISSUE. The FAA Administrator fell into an old trap, when a few days ago, he mis-stated that as instead an un-teachable part of a human's "common sense". See discussion points (red flags) mentioned here:
Person Of Interest
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FEsmokie is right on the mark...In all of my Transcon and "Over The Pond" flights, I'm not really sure If I could have done it without the FE ("P"FE or not)...In any case that 3rd crewmember made my stress level way, way lower....
Person Of Interest
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FEsmokie is right on the mark...In all of my Transcon and "Over The Pond" flights, I'm not really sure If I could have done it without the FE ("P"FE or not)...In any case that 3rd crewmember made my stress level way, way lower....Thanks Gary and John...You know who you are...
Transcripts of radio traffic and some audio has been released by the FAA, available here:
Northwest Airlines Flight 188 - October 23, 2009
In the media:
FAA Transcripts Show Efforts to Reach Flight 188 - ABC News
Northwest Airlines Flight 188 - October 23, 2009
In the media:
FAA Transcripts Show Efforts to Reach Flight 188 - ABC News
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From the blog of the Dallas Morning News, a supposed 'insider' account from a friend of the captain:
AIRLINE BIZ Blog | The Dallas Morning News
Hi All,
I had a one hour conversation with Tim Cheney yesterday and would like to shed some light on what happened to cause the over flight of their destination, MSP.
Before I begin with details, I wanted to say right up front that although there are many events that helped to cause this, Tim takes full responsibility and places no blame on anyone but himself. He is very humbled by what has happened and fully understands that as captain, he was responsible for the a/c, crew and passengers. That said, he wanted me to know how it all happened. Secondly, he has the full support of his neighbors in Gig Harbor, WA, as well has his church parishioners. One of his neighbors wrote a letter to the Star & Tribune in Minneapolis saying how great a family the Cheney's were, I agree.
On their flight from San Diego to Minneapolis, after passing Denver, the f/a called the cockpit to let them know Tim's crew meal was ready. Tim was the "flying pilot" on this leg, so he told his F/O that when the f/a brings the meal up, he will step back to use the restroom. When Tim returned, the F/A left the cockpit and he began to eat his crew meal. When a pilot leaves to use the restroom, it is customary for the other pilot to brief him on his return on "any changes", such as altitude, heading, course changes or atc center frequency changes, etc. In this instance, nothing was said....even though the f/o had received a frequency change. The problem that occurred was that the f/o never got a response on the new frequency....it was not the correct frequency....it was a Winnipeg Canada Center Freq.
Now, Denver Center is trying to get a hold of them because they never checked in, because the f/o had dialed in the wrong freq......that is who called them so many times....but, then there was a shift change at Denver Center and no one briefed the new controller that there was a NORDO A/C (non communications) in their airspace....so, in actuality, atc basically "lost" this a/c.....see Wall Street Journal article below.
Tim told me he heard atc chatter on the speaker and so never thought they were out of radio range.....but, of course, they were hearing pilots talk on Winnipeg Center. For non-pilots.....when we don't hear anything for a long while...we ask atc if they are still there....sometimes they are and sometimes you are out of their area and need to find a new frequency. With this chatter going on, there was no concern that they were not being controlled.
Then Tim told the f/o that the new bidding system was horrible and that his November schedule was not what he hoped for. He mentioned that his son was going into the Army in Dec. and he wanted certain days off so he could see him off.....the f/o said he could help him, he knew more about the new bidding system. Tim got his lap top out and put it on his left leg and showed the f/o how he bid. He told me he had his lap top out for maybe 2 minutes. Then the f/o said that he would show him how to do it on his laptop. He had his laptop out maximum of 5 minutes.
Let's also add the 100 kt tail wind that they had to the discussion, not helping matters.
The f/a's called the cockpit on the interphone(no they did not kick the door, no, no one was sleeping, no, no one was fighting) and asked when they will get there. They looked at their nav screens and were directly over MSP. Because they had their screens set on the max, 320 kt setting, when the f/o called on the frequency, which of course was Winnipeg Center, he saw Eau Claire and Duluth on his screen. They asked where they were and the f/o told them over Eau Claire, which was not even close, but MSP had disappeared from the screen even though they were right over the city.
They were, as you all know, vectored all over the sky to determine if they had control of the a/c and Tim kept telling the f/o to tell them they have control they want to land at MSP, etc. They landed with 11,000 pounds of fuel (no they did not come in on fumes, but had 2 hours in an A320) and not but 15 minutes past schedule, even though they left San Diego 35 minutes late due to an atc flow restriction.
In the jet-way awaiting them were FBI and every other authority you can imagine.
Aftermath and tidbits:
Although these pilots filed an NASAP Report, which was designed to have pilots tell the truth about events, so the FAA could learn from them, they had their licenses revoked by the ATL F.A.A. even before they came out of their meeting with NTSB and NASAP meetings.
ATL FAA is really big on this new regulation which will allow pilots to take a short nap in flight so they will be rested for the approach...they were insistent that they were sleeping.
MSP FAA, Vance (do not know last name) was the person who handed Tim his revocation letter(which was leaked to the entire world by the ATL FAA). Tim said Vance had tears in his eyes and walked away, said nothing. It was later learned that the entire MSP FAA office did not agree at all with revoking their pilot's licenses, but had no jurisdiction over the matter, since ATL FAA had control because of Delta.
The pilots have been to Wash. D.C., ATL and MSP for several meetings. In ATL, they met with the chief pilots and Tim said they could not have been nicer. They are working to resolve this, not to try and fire them. But of course, they will have to get their license back for Delta to consider allowing them to continue flying. The appeal has been files for the FAA to reinstate their licenses or to settle on some form of punishment, etc.
When Tim and his wife were in MSP for a meeting with the NTSB, they happen to be staying at the same hotel as the NTSB was. The next morning in the lobby, the NTSB official came over to Tim and said he did not know why they even called them in for this event. There was no safety issue. Also, MSP Center informed Delta that there never was a problem and no aircraft were near their plane. Even though no radio communications, they had been followed and separated.
Yes, the company tried to contact them on ACARS, but the 320 does not have a chime...it has a 30 second light which then extinguishes.
Tim always has 121.5 tuned, but as we all know as pilots, it can get very noisy at times and we turn it down and sometimes forget to turn it back on. He told me this may have been the case.
So there were so many factors which helped to cause this episode. Anyone would have likely prevented it.....properly checking in on the new frequency would have been the first one.....
A note about laptops.....in NWA's A.O.M (I think it stands for airman's operation manual), it does not say we can't use a laptop, however in Delta's A.O.M., it does, we are transitioning now and we actually have pages from both airlines. When our union showed this to the attorney's, they could not believe the confusion put on our pilot group. But, D.C. F.A.A. put out a new possible ruling which will disallow all laptops......so stupid, don't they know Jet Blue has laptops on every aircraft and soon all airliners will for the electronic Jepp charts.
These are the facts and again, Tim said he feels very bad for the company and the pilots and is hoping for a positive outcome on their appeal. With 24 years at NWA, 21,000 blemish free hours, it would be a mistake to ruin his career over this in my opinion.
Thank you,
Mike
I had a one hour conversation with Tim Cheney yesterday and would like to shed some light on what happened to cause the over flight of their destination, MSP.
Before I begin with details, I wanted to say right up front that although there are many events that helped to cause this, Tim takes full responsibility and places no blame on anyone but himself. He is very humbled by what has happened and fully understands that as captain, he was responsible for the a/c, crew and passengers. That said, he wanted me to know how it all happened. Secondly, he has the full support of his neighbors in Gig Harbor, WA, as well has his church parishioners. One of his neighbors wrote a letter to the Star & Tribune in Minneapolis saying how great a family the Cheney's were, I agree.
On their flight from San Diego to Minneapolis, after passing Denver, the f/a called the cockpit to let them know Tim's crew meal was ready. Tim was the "flying pilot" on this leg, so he told his F/O that when the f/a brings the meal up, he will step back to use the restroom. When Tim returned, the F/A left the cockpit and he began to eat his crew meal. When a pilot leaves to use the restroom, it is customary for the other pilot to brief him on his return on "any changes", such as altitude, heading, course changes or atc center frequency changes, etc. In this instance, nothing was said....even though the f/o had received a frequency change. The problem that occurred was that the f/o never got a response on the new frequency....it was not the correct frequency....it was a Winnipeg Canada Center Freq.
Now, Denver Center is trying to get a hold of them because they never checked in, because the f/o had dialed in the wrong freq......that is who called them so many times....but, then there was a shift change at Denver Center and no one briefed the new controller that there was a NORDO A/C (non communications) in their airspace....so, in actuality, atc basically "lost" this a/c.....see Wall Street Journal article below.
Tim told me he heard atc chatter on the speaker and so never thought they were out of radio range.....but, of course, they were hearing pilots talk on Winnipeg Center. For non-pilots.....when we don't hear anything for a long while...we ask atc if they are still there....sometimes they are and sometimes you are out of their area and need to find a new frequency. With this chatter going on, there was no concern that they were not being controlled.
Then Tim told the f/o that the new bidding system was horrible and that his November schedule was not what he hoped for. He mentioned that his son was going into the Army in Dec. and he wanted certain days off so he could see him off.....the f/o said he could help him, he knew more about the new bidding system. Tim got his lap top out and put it on his left leg and showed the f/o how he bid. He told me he had his lap top out for maybe 2 minutes. Then the f/o said that he would show him how to do it on his laptop. He had his laptop out maximum of 5 minutes.
Let's also add the 100 kt tail wind that they had to the discussion, not helping matters.
The f/a's called the cockpit on the interphone(no they did not kick the door, no, no one was sleeping, no, no one was fighting) and asked when they will get there. They looked at their nav screens and were directly over MSP. Because they had their screens set on the max, 320 kt setting, when the f/o called on the frequency, which of course was Winnipeg Center, he saw Eau Claire and Duluth on his screen. They asked where they were and the f/o told them over Eau Claire, which was not even close, but MSP had disappeared from the screen even though they were right over the city.
They were, as you all know, vectored all over the sky to determine if they had control of the a/c and Tim kept telling the f/o to tell them they have control they want to land at MSP, etc. They landed with 11,000 pounds of fuel (no they did not come in on fumes, but had 2 hours in an A320) and not but 15 minutes past schedule, even though they left San Diego 35 minutes late due to an atc flow restriction.
In the jet-way awaiting them were FBI and every other authority you can imagine.
Aftermath and tidbits:
Although these pilots filed an NASAP Report, which was designed to have pilots tell the truth about events, so the FAA could learn from them, they had their licenses revoked by the ATL F.A.A. even before they came out of their meeting with NTSB and NASAP meetings.
ATL FAA is really big on this new regulation which will allow pilots to take a short nap in flight so they will be rested for the approach...they were insistent that they were sleeping.
MSP FAA, Vance (do not know last name) was the person who handed Tim his revocation letter(which was leaked to the entire world by the ATL FAA). Tim said Vance had tears in his eyes and walked away, said nothing. It was later learned that the entire MSP FAA office did not agree at all with revoking their pilot's licenses, but had no jurisdiction over the matter, since ATL FAA had control because of Delta.
The pilots have been to Wash. D.C., ATL and MSP for several meetings. In ATL, they met with the chief pilots and Tim said they could not have been nicer. They are working to resolve this, not to try and fire them. But of course, they will have to get their license back for Delta to consider allowing them to continue flying. The appeal has been files for the FAA to reinstate their licenses or to settle on some form of punishment, etc.
When Tim and his wife were in MSP for a meeting with the NTSB, they happen to be staying at the same hotel as the NTSB was. The next morning in the lobby, the NTSB official came over to Tim and said he did not know why they even called them in for this event. There was no safety issue. Also, MSP Center informed Delta that there never was a problem and no aircraft were near their plane. Even though no radio communications, they had been followed and separated.
Yes, the company tried to contact them on ACARS, but the 320 does not have a chime...it has a 30 second light which then extinguishes.
Tim always has 121.5 tuned, but as we all know as pilots, it can get very noisy at times and we turn it down and sometimes forget to turn it back on. He told me this may have been the case.
So there were so many factors which helped to cause this episode. Anyone would have likely prevented it.....properly checking in on the new frequency would have been the first one.....
A note about laptops.....in NWA's A.O.M (I think it stands for airman's operation manual), it does not say we can't use a laptop, however in Delta's A.O.M., it does, we are transitioning now and we actually have pages from both airlines. When our union showed this to the attorney's, they could not believe the confusion put on our pilot group. But, D.C. F.A.A. put out a new possible ruling which will disallow all laptops......so stupid, don't they know Jet Blue has laptops on every aircraft and soon all airliners will for the electronic Jepp charts.
These are the facts and again, Tim said he feels very bad for the company and the pilots and is hoping for a positive outcome on their appeal. With 24 years at NWA, 21,000 blemish free hours, it would be a mistake to ruin his career over this in my opinion.
Thank you,
Mike
I Have Control
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From a colleague in the UK, who operates regularly in US/Canadian airspace, I believe a travesty of justice has occurred, due to inter-agency politics and trial by media. Unfair! Good luck, Capt. Cheney.
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I've been there. Either controller forgot to hand us off or something caused us to fly out of radio contact. You then get your charts out and find a freq. to talk to anybody to find out what freq. you should be on. They shouldn't lose their pilots license for this.
I think the ATL FAA over reacted because of the media exposure to show how they are tough on pilot error. They have been punished enough already. Get them back in their pilot seats they worked so hard to get to and not make this a media show.
I think the ATL FAA over reacted because of the media exposure to show how they are tough on pilot error. They have been punished enough already. Get them back in their pilot seats they worked so hard to get to and not make this a media show.
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The FAA was recently accused of being too cozy with the airlines in their regions letting them slide on some violations. ATL FAA has been cozy with Delta for decades. Do you think politics might have played a part in nailing a NWA crew now owned by Delta to show how tough they are but not upset Delta too much? Just a thought. The Delta guys who landed on the taxiway recently seem to be doing just fine. Back to the sim for blue lights and white lights differences then back on the line.