NTSB investigating possible nodding off of Northwest pilots
Psychophysiological entity
unless of course you're rumbling past Vr.
Then there's rabbits. You'd be amazed at how high rabbits can jump.
Then there's rabbits. You'd be amazed at how high rabbits can jump.
Someone I knew had a seagull miss the propellers of their Cessna 182 yet smashed through the windshield. She saw it in time to duck low and avoid injury, but flying with no windshield and a bloody mess inside the cockpit was a challenge.
I'm told if flying low over water in a seaplane or for whatever reason, keep in mind those cute seagulls face upwind and take off upwind if startled by the noise of a plane, so take off or landing slightly downwind is handy if you notice a flock of seagulls at the last moment.
Large planes can't move as swiftly when facing flocks of Canada geese.
I'm told if flying low over water in a seaplane or for whatever reason, keep in mind those cute seagulls face upwind and take off upwind if startled by the noise of a plane, so take off or landing slightly downwind is handy if you notice a flock of seagulls at the last moment.
Large planes can't move as swiftly when facing flocks of Canada geese.
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: My Stringy Brane
Posts: 377
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The AP reports:
Northwest pilots appeal license revocation
By JOAN LOWY, Associated Press Writer
WASHINGTON – The Northwest Airlines pilots who overshot Minneapolis by 150 miles have filed appeals of their license revocations with the National Transportation Safety Board.
The appeals were filed late Wednesday, said board spokesman Ted Lopatkiewicz. He said that appeals typically are heard by an administrative law judge with the board within 120 days.
The Federal Aviation Administration revoked the licenses of Capt. Timothy Cheney of Gig Harbor, Washington, and First Officer Richard Cole of Salem, Oregon, last week. The agency said the pilots put the 144 passengers of Northwest Flight 188 in serious danger on Oct. 21 when they failed to communicate with anyone on the ground for 91 minutes despite repeated attempts by air traffic controllers and their own airline to reach them.
Cheney and Cole told investigators they lost track of time and place while working on crew scheduling on their laptops. They said they didn't realize their situation until a flight attendant contacted them on the intercom to ask when the plane would be landing. By then, the Airbus A320 was over Wisconsin at 37,000 feet. The pilots turned the plane around and landed safely in Minneapolis.
Attorneys for the pilots declined to comment.
The incident raised national security concerns. Senior White House officials were notified by the White House situation room during the incident. Fighter jets in two locations were moments away from taking off to track down the errant airliner when contact was re-established.
Sen. Robert Menendez, D-N.J., introduced a bill Thursday to ban nonessential electronics, including personal laptops, from the cockpit.
"We simply want to ensure that, with all of the electronic distractions available these days, flying the plane remains the one and only focus," Menendez said in a statement.
FAA Administrator Randy Babbitt said Wednesday that the Northwest incident is the result of an erosion of professionalism among commercial airline pilots.
"I think that this is a sign of a much bigger problem," Babbitt said in a speech to an aviation club. "I can't regulate professionalism. With everything we know about human factors, there are still those who just ignore the commonsense rules of safety."
By JOAN LOWY, Associated Press Writer
WASHINGTON – The Northwest Airlines pilots who overshot Minneapolis by 150 miles have filed appeals of their license revocations with the National Transportation Safety Board.
The appeals were filed late Wednesday, said board spokesman Ted Lopatkiewicz. He said that appeals typically are heard by an administrative law judge with the board within 120 days.
The Federal Aviation Administration revoked the licenses of Capt. Timothy Cheney of Gig Harbor, Washington, and First Officer Richard Cole of Salem, Oregon, last week. The agency said the pilots put the 144 passengers of Northwest Flight 188 in serious danger on Oct. 21 when they failed to communicate with anyone on the ground for 91 minutes despite repeated attempts by air traffic controllers and their own airline to reach them.
Cheney and Cole told investigators they lost track of time and place while working on crew scheduling on their laptops. They said they didn't realize their situation until a flight attendant contacted them on the intercom to ask when the plane would be landing. By then, the Airbus A320 was over Wisconsin at 37,000 feet. The pilots turned the plane around and landed safely in Minneapolis.
Attorneys for the pilots declined to comment.
The incident raised national security concerns. Senior White House officials were notified by the White House situation room during the incident. Fighter jets in two locations were moments away from taking off to track down the errant airliner when contact was re-established.
Sen. Robert Menendez, D-N.J., introduced a bill Thursday to ban nonessential electronics, including personal laptops, from the cockpit.
"We simply want to ensure that, with all of the electronic distractions available these days, flying the plane remains the one and only focus," Menendez said in a statement.
FAA Administrator Randy Babbitt said Wednesday that the Northwest incident is the result of an erosion of professionalism among commercial airline pilots.
"I think that this is a sign of a much bigger problem," Babbitt said in a speech to an aviation club. "I can't regulate professionalism. With everything we know about human factors, there are still those who just ignore the commonsense rules of safety."
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Seattle
Posts: 167
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Fox News reporting that Flt 188 was NORDO for a total of three hours. Apparently repetitive periods through that flight. It is really hard to understand this whole incident.
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Left Side
Age: 23
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Babbit?
Maybe Bugs Babbit should have FOCUSED more on his job at ALPO instead ignoring our pleas to shore up the pension rules.
Anything that comes out of his mouth is carefully structured to benefit him, not anyone else. He is a pathetic example of someone that should be castigating another for lack of focus.
Anything that comes out of his mouth is carefully structured to benefit him, not anyone else. He is a pathetic example of someone that should be castigating another for lack of focus.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Esher, Surrey
Posts: 466
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Fox News reporting that Flt 188 was NORDO for a total of three hours
Sources told FOX News there were three NORDO's --- or non-contacts -- the first one occurring shortly after the plane reached cruising altitude out of San Diego. The military was not notified until after the third NORDO -- which occurred as the plane approached Minneapolis.
Once NORAD was notified -- it had fighter jets ready on the runway within five minutes.
National Transportation Safety Board spokesman Ted Lopatkiewicz said Thursday the pilots have filed appeals with the safety board.
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: heads down trying to figure out Chinese RVSM
Posts: 200
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
WTF?
and if Sullengberger et al were looking where the f* they were going, they wouldnt have run into a flock of birds in the first place!
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Castlegar
Posts: 255
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
? Common sense ? ambiguity
From press quote:
Neither Professional Standards, nor the regulator, nor the line pilots agree on specific points of the ambiguous "common sense" in a highly reliable airliner. Most pilots regard general reading, crossword puzzle, as an acceptable diversion during CRZ.
"... FAA Administrator ... said Wednesday that ... incident is the result of an erosion of professionalism ... a sign of a much bigger problem ... there are still those who just ignore the commonsense rules of safety."
That old ambiguous "common sense" -- That must be instead a TRAINING ISSUE. Neither Professional Standards, nor the regulator, nor the line pilots agree on specific points of the ambiguous "common sense" in a highly reliable airliner. Most pilots regard general reading, crossword puzzle, as an acceptable diversion during CRZ.
Twenty or more years ago I was based at JFK flying DC-10s for a Part 121 operator. I would ride jumpseat home to UK at least once a month with the likes of PanAm, TWA, Flying Tigers, AmTran or even AEI.
I could guarantee that after the seatbelt signs went off at 10,000 feet then the flight deck crew would get started on the seniority list, rosters, bid lines, who was screwing who, pay rises and where the management were hiding all the profits and under who's bed.
I cannot begin to tell you how many times the discussion took over the flight deck and anything that was happening outside was almost treated as an intrusion.
I personally have absolutely no difficulty in believing that this pair managed to overfly their destination whilst discussing their future bidlines.
As an oldtimer who has never broken anything in a long flying career, I find it very difficult to understand anyone who is trying to defend this sort of behaviour.
I was sent a copy of the letter that the FAA sent to them revoking their licences this morning and I have to say that I agree with everything that the FAA says therein.
This was a very sad event for those of us who consider ourselves to be old-fashioned professionals.
I could guarantee that after the seatbelt signs went off at 10,000 feet then the flight deck crew would get started on the seniority list, rosters, bid lines, who was screwing who, pay rises and where the management were hiding all the profits and under who's bed.
I cannot begin to tell you how many times the discussion took over the flight deck and anything that was happening outside was almost treated as an intrusion.
I personally have absolutely no difficulty in believing that this pair managed to overfly their destination whilst discussing their future bidlines.
As an oldtimer who has never broken anything in a long flying career, I find it very difficult to understand anyone who is trying to defend this sort of behaviour.
I was sent a copy of the letter that the FAA sent to them revoking their licences this morning and I have to say that I agree with everything that the FAA says therein.
This was a very sad event for those of us who consider ourselves to be old-fashioned professionals.
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Munich, Germany
Posts: 271
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What are the potential solutions??
Lets provide suggestions on solving, rather than simply stating, issues.
None of us was on this flight when this event took place. However though, a significantly large number of pilots here have hundreds and others thousands of hours in the cockpit and also understand the situational awareness problem.
As already mentioned, my view of the problem is, cockpit events are not being monitored and hence performance review of cockpit events is not being enforced. As long as this is not the case, events like this will continue happening.
My perspective is to position cameras in the cockpit. This will profoundly change things. If cameras were on board this plane, we won't be wasting time and resources listening to reckless pilots that don't understand their responsibilities.
Another solution I think could be helpful is to provide crew members access to listen into ATC communications with the pilots. If this possibility was there, the crew could have alerted the pilots to the situation.
WP
None of us was on this flight when this event took place. However though, a significantly large number of pilots here have hundreds and others thousands of hours in the cockpit and also understand the situational awareness problem.
As already mentioned, my view of the problem is, cockpit events are not being monitored and hence performance review of cockpit events is not being enforced. As long as this is not the case, events like this will continue happening.
My perspective is to position cameras in the cockpit. This will profoundly change things. If cameras were on board this plane, we won't be wasting time and resources listening to reckless pilots that don't understand their responsibilities.
Another solution I think could be helpful is to provide crew members access to listen into ATC communications with the pilots. If this possibility was there, the crew could have alerted the pilots to the situation.
WP
Join Date: May 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 211
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Missed your airport? ......there's a song for you
On a light hearted note I couldn't resist highlighting someone's very wry sense of humour.....
The 'Whoops I missed my airport' song.
The 'Whoops I missed my airport' song.
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: W of 30W
Posts: 1,916
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by worldpilot
My perspective is to position cameras in the cockpit. This will profoundly change things. If cameras were on board this plane, we won't be wasting time and resources listening to reckless pilots that don't understand their responsibilities.
quidquid excusatio prandium pro
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: New York
Posts: 349
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Banning laptops seems to be the flavor of the moment, that'll sure solve everything.
And once the cameras are installed in the cockpit, in the interests of public safety, I'd personally like to see a spy-cam installed in the office of every accountant, lawyer, engineer, banker, real estate agent, let's not forget those pesky financial advisers, and just to make sure nobody takes it straight up the @rse, without prior notification, all proctologists as well.
I don't currently suffer from insanity, but given the present state of affairs, enjoying every minute of it just seems to work a whole lot better.
And once the cameras are installed in the cockpit, in the interests of public safety, I'd personally like to see a spy-cam installed in the office of every accountant, lawyer, engineer, banker, real estate agent, let's not forget those pesky financial advisers, and just to make sure nobody takes it straight up the @rse, without prior notification, all proctologists as well.
I don't currently suffer from insanity, but given the present state of affairs, enjoying every minute of it just seems to work a whole lot better.
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Sale, Australia
Age: 80
Posts: 3,832
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Best listen up to Congress guys and gals re laptops, for they are experts on the distractions provided by same. 
House Minority Leader Lawrence F. Cafero Jr., R-Norwalk, pictured standing, far right, speaks while colleagues Rep. Barbara Lambert, D-Milford and Rep. Jack F. Hennessy, D-Bridgeport, play solitaire Monday night as the House convened to vote on a new budget.
The guy sitting in the row in front of these two... he's on Facebook, and the guy behind Hennessy is checking out the baseball scores.
These are the folks that can't get the budget out by Oct. 1, Seriously!!!
So, we’ve got a 30 day budget extension. Well, guess what, 30 days from now we will be in the same boat. I guess this makes it easy for the news ‘reporters’ as all they have to do is recycle the same headlines from this week and from 2 years ago. And these yo-yo’s will still be playing SOLITAIRE!!!
House Minority Leader Lawrence F. Cafero Jr., R-Norwalk, pictured standing, far right, speaks while colleagues Rep. Barbara Lambert, D-Milford and Rep. Jack F. Hennessy, D-Bridgeport, play solitaire Monday night as the House convened to vote on a new budget.
The guy sitting in the row in front of these two... he's on Facebook, and the guy behind Hennessy is checking out the baseball scores.
These are the folks that can't get the budget out by Oct. 1, Seriously!!!
So, we’ve got a 30 day budget extension. Well, guess what, 30 days from now we will be in the same boat. I guess this makes it easy for the news ‘reporters’ as all they have to do is recycle the same headlines from this week and from 2 years ago. And these yo-yo’s will still be playing SOLITAIRE!!!
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Greece
Age: 84
Posts: 63
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Twenty or more years ago I was based at JFK flying DC-10s for a Part 121 operator. I would ride jumpseat home to UK at least once a month with the likes of PanAm, TWA, Flying Tigers, AmTran or even AEI.
I could guarantee that after the seatbelt signs went off at 10,000 feet then the flight deck crew would get started on the seniority list, rosters, bid lines, who was screwing who, pay rises and where the management were hiding all the profits and under who's bed.
I cannot begin to tell you how many times the discussion took over the flight deck and anything that was happening outside was almost treated as an intrusion.
I personally have absolutely no difficulty in believing that this pair managed to overfly their destination whilst discussing their future bidlines.
As an oldtimer who has never broken anything in a long flying career, I find it very difficult to understand anyone who is trying to defend this sort of behavior.
I could guarantee that after the seatbelt signs went off at 10,000 feet then the flight deck crew would get started on the seniority list, rosters, bid lines, who was screwing who, pay rises and where the management were hiding all the profits and under who's bed.
I cannot begin to tell you how many times the discussion took over the flight deck and anything that was happening outside was almost treated as an intrusion.
I personally have absolutely no difficulty in believing that this pair managed to overfly their destination whilst discussing their future bidlines.
As an oldtimer who has never broken anything in a long flying career, I find it very difficult to understand anyone who is trying to defend this sort of behavior.
Let me ask you this... all those years ago, jumpseating back home, and you witnessed those outrages of unprofessional behaviour... did you jump up from your jumpseat (no doubt hence the name) and raise your fist and say
"I say, by Jove, stop these unprincipled shenanigans, at once!" no?
hmm... perhaps maybe you defended this behavior yourself by endorsing it with your acquiescence?
"I personally have absolutely no difficulty in believing that this pair managed to overfly their destination whilst discussing their future bidlines. "
Neither can I.. My disbelief is that people thinks that 'off with their head' will fix anything- I dare say cockpits have a bit more automation than back in your days mentioned which encourages these kinds of lapses -more, not less.
I'm liking the idea of a treadmill somewhere off the cockpit. it could be quite light and give you a chance to flex those leg muscles with a brisk two mile walk (you could quite honestly boast you walked 2 hundred miles today logging the place you were when you started, vs where you are when you stopped) the treadmill has a little screen for tv, or web or a little video game, Air rules Jeopardy anyone?.. out of the cockpit, but in sight of it, no more than a few paces?
Sure these guys 'screwed up' as you so eloquently put it
So how would you put it ?
but not all heroes are heroic and if Sullengberger et al were looking where the f* they were going, they wouldnt have run into a flock of birds in the first place!
If not, maybe Sully's lawyer might like to talk to you ? and also, if not, take your head out of your a***e and get off this thread - you're clearly an idiot.
cannot begin to tell you how many times the discussion took over the flight deck and anything that was happening outside was almost treated as an intrusion.
I personally have absolutely no difficulty in believing that this pair managed to overfly their destination whilst discussing their future bidlines.
As an oldtimer who has never broken anything in a long flying career, I find it very difficult to understand anyone who is trying to defend this sort of behaviour.
I was sent a copy of the letter that the FAA sent to them revoking their licences this morning and I have to say that I agree with everything that the FAA says therein.
This was a very sad event for those of us who consider ourselves to be old-fashioned professionals.
I personally have absolutely no difficulty in believing that this pair managed to overfly their destination whilst discussing their future bidlines.
As an oldtimer who has never broken anything in a long flying career, I find it very difficult to understand anyone who is trying to defend this sort of behaviour.
I was sent a copy of the letter that the FAA sent to them revoking their licences this morning and I have to say that I agree with everything that the FAA says therein.
This was a very sad event for those of us who consider ourselves to be old-fashioned professionals.
anything that was happening outside was almost treated as an intrusion.
No contest - this lot screwed up.
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Amsterdam
Age: 54
Posts: 81
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I find it hard to believe what happened. You can be concentrated but hey, when ATC calls you a few times, someone should wake up behind their laptop.. the plane could have crashed due to a miss handling of their autopilot like delta in the everglades.. thinking you are flying at level. Good they had to bring in their license and should not be returned.. you get paid to be sharp and accurate and take of your passengers, not to figure out what ever you were doing during the flight....