NTSB investigating possible nodding off of Northwest pilots
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While ATC may share some of the blame... ultimately it's the responsibility of the flight crew to maintain situation awareness and follow approved pocedures should they determine that they have lost two way communications... which this crew did not.
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I think the simple and cheapest solution to this is to write on a large 'sticky' 'Please bang on our door at....(insert ETA-20)' and stick it somewhere easily visible on the cabin side of the door. Then the pilots will not forget to land
I'd like to know where they WOULD have landed if the c/crew had not asked.............
I'd like to know where they WOULD have landed if the c/crew had not asked.............
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Sorry to digress guys, but years ago FAA had relieved ATC of responsibility if pilots readback the wrong instructions or clearances. Did the pilots readback the wrong frequency and the readback was ignored or not picked up by ATC?
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Inderputra makes a fine point. The FAA has arranged its business to always be able to blame someone else...unless the courts get involved.
I would like to point out that there is a rhythym to flying. Now, I am of the opinion if you depend on the rhythym that I will discuss you can get into real trouble.
Some pilots fly along being lead by ATC and not really thinking. Their brains are on a bio autopilot if you will. This happens and then I do that. You might have seen it in the simulator. My example is when atc clears you for approach you arm the localizer capture.
Now, of course you should be situationnaly aware and not need that verbal clue...but so many sim instructors have used that bit it becomes part of the rhythym.
But what happens in the sim if you are pretending you have an emergency, lose your radio, wings on fire etc and you need to land EVEN IF YOU DOn't have clearance. YOU get it...you forget to arm the localizer capture and you sail through the beam. BAM, you die.
Well, our NWA boys were on bio autopilot...after all what could go wrong? And they didn't get their proper verbal clues like multiple frequency changes and descent clearance.
Now, again, I am opposed to the (ahem) rhythym method of navigation, but there are those of you out there who are dependent upon it.
So, learn and think ahead. do the laptop stuff in the hotel.
I would like to point out that there is a rhythym to flying. Now, I am of the opinion if you depend on the rhythym that I will discuss you can get into real trouble.
Some pilots fly along being lead by ATC and not really thinking. Their brains are on a bio autopilot if you will. This happens and then I do that. You might have seen it in the simulator. My example is when atc clears you for approach you arm the localizer capture.
Now, of course you should be situationnaly aware and not need that verbal clue...but so many sim instructors have used that bit it becomes part of the rhythym.
But what happens in the sim if you are pretending you have an emergency, lose your radio, wings on fire etc and you need to land EVEN IF YOU DOn't have clearance. YOU get it...you forget to arm the localizer capture and you sail through the beam. BAM, you die.
Well, our NWA boys were on bio autopilot...after all what could go wrong? And they didn't get their proper verbal clues like multiple frequency changes and descent clearance.
Now, again, I am opposed to the (ahem) rhythym method of navigation, but there are those of you out there who are dependent upon it.
So, learn and think ahead. do the laptop stuff in the hotel.
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The Youtube satire is brilliant, but alas, there's not a lot of humor allowed on PPRuNe.
My lowly opinion... Capt Sullenburger did what any good pilot would do. He's a hero. The Delta pilots had a lapse of professionalism and were crucified. Is either one fair? No, but as an old Army sergeant taught me, life isn't fair.
My lowly opinion... Capt Sullenburger did what any good pilot would do. He's a hero. The Delta pilots had a lapse of professionalism and were crucified. Is either one fair? No, but as an old Army sergeant taught me, life isn't fair.
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Blaming Capt and ATC
One moment : this was an incident , not an accident , no metal bent, nobody hurt, no other airplane got too close, a/c had 2h left of fuel upon landing, and a/c landed only 15 minutes behind schedule .
So for any reasonable safety orientating organization ( such as FAA and Delta ) the ONLY points to be looking at would be : how did this occur, and what do we do to prevent this from happening again : point.
Instead what do we see, who is to blame ?, Pilots fired immediately without a proper defense, NTSB brought in, (!!) National security -Military pointing fingers, Pilots blaming ATC, Co-Pilot blaming Captain , all this in public and with the media " experts " involved at full blast..
We see jokes about pilots in late night shows playing with laptops, while the main problem is R/T management. Recognizing as a pilot that one is on a wrong frequency , and for ATC what to do when an a/c is on a wrong Freq.
8,33 increased the problem, and the radio-comm failures current procedures are inadequate , as was demonstrated the hard way in the GOL/legacy collision over Brazil .
The most likely result of all this is that in the future people will be inclined to keep their mouth shut when such incidents occur. A big, big step forward in safety .
So for any reasonable safety orientating organization ( such as FAA and Delta ) the ONLY points to be looking at would be : how did this occur, and what do we do to prevent this from happening again : point.
Instead what do we see, who is to blame ?, Pilots fired immediately without a proper defense, NTSB brought in, (!!) National security -Military pointing fingers, Pilots blaming ATC, Co-Pilot blaming Captain , all this in public and with the media " experts " involved at full blast..
We see jokes about pilots in late night shows playing with laptops, while the main problem is R/T management. Recognizing as a pilot that one is on a wrong frequency , and for ATC what to do when an a/c is on a wrong Freq.
8,33 increased the problem, and the radio-comm failures current procedures are inadequate , as was demonstrated the hard way in the GOL/legacy collision over Brazil .
The most likely result of all this is that in the future people will be inclined to keep their mouth shut when such incidents occur. A big, big step forward in safety .
I'd like to know where they WOULD have landed if the c/crew had not asked.............
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Sorry to digress guys, but years ago FAA had relieved ATC of responsibility if pilots readback the wrong instructions or clearances. Did the pilots readback the wrong frequency and the readback was ignored or not picked up by ATC?
. Cole and Cheny knew the procedures to be followed if they suspected loss of radio communications. Unfortunately they could not find the procedures on their laptops
.
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Sorry to digress guys, but years ago FAA had relieved ATC of responsibility if pilots readback the wrong instructions or clearances. Did the pilots readback the wrong frequency and the readback was ignored or not picked up by ATC?
Mrs. Ditchdigger tells me that she is required to get readbacks (correct ones), on all hold short instructions, and for any other readbacks that the pilot chooses to make, to be sure that those readbacks are correct. If she allows an incorrect readback to go uncorrected, and later the tapes are reviewed, she's in trouble, even if the faulty readback had no impact on later events.
Inderputra makes a fine point. The FAA has arranged its business to always be able to blame someone else...unless the courts get involved.
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total loss of situational awareness, which could have lead to disaterous consequences if the cabin crew did not enquire as to when they were going to land...
"Cabin crew avoid disaster!" will be the next headline I guess....
Sorry to digress guys, but years ago FAA had relieved ATC of responsibility if pilots readback the wrong instructions or clearances.
Last edited by ATC Watcher; 9th Dec 2009 at 14:59. Reason: addition
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...but reading the NTSB preliminary report of the Hudson river collision , it would seem that not picking up a wrong frequency read back had some consequences for the controller.
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Well captjns,
I don't find it particularily interesting what the FARs or company rules say. They might be usefull for those wishing to point fingers or be defensive. I find neither exercise interesting. What I do find interesting is how this event have forced me to look at myself and ask some serious questions.
Had you asked these two guys a year ago if something like this could ever happen to them, they would most certainly have said no. Again I look at myself and wonder if I am capable of doing something similar. The only honest answer I can come up with is that I don't know, I hope not, but I actually don't know.
That is the value I am drawing from this, a better understanding of myself, not how many stones I can throw. For one day I might be sitting in the glass house with all the windows broken.
I don't find it particularily interesting what the FARs or company rules say. They might be usefull for those wishing to point fingers or be defensive. I find neither exercise interesting. What I do find interesting is how this event have forced me to look at myself and ask some serious questions.
Had you asked these two guys a year ago if something like this could ever happen to them, they would most certainly have said no. Again I look at myself and wonder if I am capable of doing something similar. The only honest answer I can come up with is that I don't know, I hope not, but I actually don't know.
That is the value I am drawing from this, a better understanding of myself, not how many stones I can throw. For one day I might be sitting in the glass house with all the windows broken.
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As posted by ATC Watcher
Subject to interpretation... I guess.
As posted by One Outsider
I don't know for sure, but if crewmembers follow company procedures, and obey the rules of the State of operation, wouldn't that keep them out of the C/P's office as well as a mandatory meeting with the aviation authorities as well as the opportunity to fly another day?
Do you really think that or are you making second degree humor ?
"Cabin crew avoid disaster!" will be the next headline I guess....
"Cabin crew avoid disaster!" will be the next headline I guess....
As posted by One Outsider
I don't find it particularily interesting what the FARs or company rules say...
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Had you asked these two guys a year ago if something like this could ever happen to them, they would most certainly have said no. Again I look at myself and wonder if I am capable of doing something similar. The only honest answer I can come up with is that I don't know, I hope not, but I actually don't know.
That is the value I am drawing from this, a better understanding of myself, not how many stones I can throw. For one day I might be sitting in the glass house with all the windows broken.
That is the value I am drawing from this, a better understanding of myself, not how many stones I can throw. For one day I might be sitting in the glass house with all the windows broken.
protectthehornet Right you are! 
Here is an article from another website about a USN submarine accident, bears this way--we are becoming more and more tolerant of multi-tasking, using personal "entertainment" in ways inconceivable 20 years ago. There are mods to a Bose aviation headset that allows the use of a iPod in-flight (read below).
I agree that 20 years ago this incident would have been forgotten, probably not even made it out of the crew room. 9/11 changed more than we know.
GF
Here is an article from another website about a USN submarine accident, bears this way--we are becoming more and more tolerant of multi-tasking, using personal "entertainment" in ways inconceivable 20 years ago. There are mods to a Bose aviation headset that allows the use of a iPod in-flight (read below).
I agree that 20 years ago this incident would have been forgotten, probably not even made it out of the crew room. 9/11 changed more than we know.
More details, of how the American submarine USS Hartford managed to collide with an American amphibious ship earlier this year, have leaked out. Nothing particularly surprising, because the captain and chief of the boat (senior NCO) were dismissed shortly after the March 20 collision. The 24,000 ton amphibious ship (the USS New Orleans, LPD 18) collided with the submerged Hartford (a 7,000 ton Lost Angeles class boat), in the narrow Straits of Hormuz. Fifteen sailors aboard the sub were injured, while a fuel tank on the LPD was torn open, and 25,000 gallons of fuel oil got into the water. The Hartford rolled 85 degrees right after the collision, and substantial damage was done to the sail, including a leak. The Hartford went to a Persian Gulf shipyard for emergency repairs (a metal brace for the sail, which was twisted so that it leaned to the right). Temporary decking, railing and antennas were added to the topside of the sub, to make it easier for the surface ride home. Nuclear subs rarely spend this much time on the surface. The accident happened at 1 AM, local time.
Initially, the accident was blamed on sloppy leadership by the captain, and the senior chief petty officer. The subsequent investigation found that lax discipline was tolerated on throughout the ship. This led to sloppiness. In particular, the crew did not take all the precautions mandated for passing through a narrow waterway like the Straits of Hormuz. The investigation found many specific errors the crew made, that contributed to the collision. This included supervisors not staying with the sonar operator, who, it turned out, was chatting with someone when the collision (that the sonar would have provided warning about) occurred. The navigator was doing something else, while listening to his iPod, while the officer in charge did not, as he was supposed to do, check the surface with the periscope. The list went on, and ultimately amounted to 30 errors in procedure.
It was an expensive accident, which has cost the U.S. Navy over $100 million for repairs. This included a hull patch, plus extensive repairs to the sail (that structure on top of the hull) and one of the retractable bow planes (a wing like device). It will take about a year to complete all the work. The damage to the amphibious ship (the USS New Orleans) was minor and repairs cost $2.3 million. The Hartford arrived back in Groton, Connecticut, from the Persian Gulf on May 21st. The Hartford took over a month to make the trip, because it has to do it all on the surface (SSNs move faster underwater, than on the surface.) This was because of the damage to the subs sail.
Initially, the accident was blamed on sloppy leadership by the captain, and the senior chief petty officer. The subsequent investigation found that lax discipline was tolerated on throughout the ship. This led to sloppiness. In particular, the crew did not take all the precautions mandated for passing through a narrow waterway like the Straits of Hormuz. The investigation found many specific errors the crew made, that contributed to the collision. This included supervisors not staying with the sonar operator, who, it turned out, was chatting with someone when the collision (that the sonar would have provided warning about) occurred. The navigator was doing something else, while listening to his iPod, while the officer in charge did not, as he was supposed to do, check the surface with the periscope. The list went on, and ultimately amounted to 30 errors in procedure.
It was an expensive accident, which has cost the U.S. Navy over $100 million for repairs. This included a hull patch, plus extensive repairs to the sail (that structure on top of the hull) and one of the retractable bow planes (a wing like device). It will take about a year to complete all the work. The damage to the amphibious ship (the USS New Orleans) was minor and repairs cost $2.3 million. The Hartford arrived back in Groton, Connecticut, from the Persian Gulf on May 21st. The Hartford took over a month to make the trip, because it has to do it all on the surface (SSNs move faster underwater, than on the surface.) This was because of the damage to the subs sail.
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Please don't disturb us in the cockpit.
(Bolding mine)
Flight attendant's call caught pilots unaware
By JOAN LOWY and JOSHUA FREED, Associated Press
WASHINGTON – A single call from a flight attendant to the pilots of the Northwest Airlines plane that overshot Minneapolis catapulted the cockpit crew from complacency to chaos.
Interviews with the flight crew and other documents released Wednesday by the National Transportation Safety Board indicate the pilots were completely unaware of their predicament until the moment the intercom rang — unaware that they had flown their Airbus A320 with 144 passenger more than 100 miles past their destination, that air traffic controllers and their airline's dispatchers had been struggling to reach them for more than an hour, or that the military was at that moment readying fighter jets for an intercept mission.
Timothy Cheney, the captain of Flight 188, said he looked up from his laptop to discover there was no longer any flight information programmed into the Airbus A320's computer. He said his navigation system showed Duluth, Minnesota, off to his left and Eau Claire, Wisconsin, ahead on the right.
The plane had been out of radio contact for 77 minutes as it flew across a broad swath of the country on Oct. 21, raising national security concerns.
Cheney, 54, and First Officer Richard Cole, 54, told investigators they had taken out their laptops and were absorbed in working on a complicated crew scheduling program that they were required to learn following Delta Air Lines' aquisition of Northwest a year earlier.
The tension of the moment was evident in the crew interviews.
According to a statement signed by flight attendant Barbara Logan, she called the cockpit around 8:15 p.m. CDT to find out when they would be landing. She was told they would land around 12 Greenwich Mean Time. "I said I did not know the time — he said I was hosed and hung up."
The lead flight attendant called to get gate information and was apparently also hung up on, according to Logan's report. That flight attendant later got through to the cockpit.
It turns out Flight 188 wasn't the only Northwest operation that was hard to reach that night. A controller who called Northwest Airlines' dispatchers to ask them to contact the plane first encountered a recording telling him the phone number had been changed. He dialed the new number, but the phone rang 10 to 20 times without being answered, he told investigators. He hung up, then redialed.
This time, someone at Northwest Airlines dispatchers' office answered the phone — and put him on hold for a few minutes. The controller said he stayed on the phone rather than try calling again because it had been so hard to get through.
Northwest Airlines dispatchers sent messages to the cockpit asking them to contact air traffic controllers, but there was no response.
The Federal Aviation Administration has since said the phone numbers controllers had for Northwest predated its acquisition by Delta and have now been updated.
By JOAN LOWY and JOSHUA FREED, Associated Press
WASHINGTON – A single call from a flight attendant to the pilots of the Northwest Airlines plane that overshot Minneapolis catapulted the cockpit crew from complacency to chaos.
Interviews with the flight crew and other documents released Wednesday by the National Transportation Safety Board indicate the pilots were completely unaware of their predicament until the moment the intercom rang — unaware that they had flown their Airbus A320 with 144 passenger more than 100 miles past their destination, that air traffic controllers and their airline's dispatchers had been struggling to reach them for more than an hour, or that the military was at that moment readying fighter jets for an intercept mission.
Timothy Cheney, the captain of Flight 188, said he looked up from his laptop to discover there was no longer any flight information programmed into the Airbus A320's computer. He said his navigation system showed Duluth, Minnesota, off to his left and Eau Claire, Wisconsin, ahead on the right.
The plane had been out of radio contact for 77 minutes as it flew across a broad swath of the country on Oct. 21, raising national security concerns.
Cheney, 54, and First Officer Richard Cole, 54, told investigators they had taken out their laptops and were absorbed in working on a complicated crew scheduling program that they were required to learn following Delta Air Lines' aquisition of Northwest a year earlier.
The tension of the moment was evident in the crew interviews.
According to a statement signed by flight attendant Barbara Logan, she called the cockpit around 8:15 p.m. CDT to find out when they would be landing. She was told they would land around 12 Greenwich Mean Time. "I said I did not know the time — he said I was hosed and hung up."
The lead flight attendant called to get gate information and was apparently also hung up on, according to Logan's report. That flight attendant later got through to the cockpit.
It turns out Flight 188 wasn't the only Northwest operation that was hard to reach that night. A controller who called Northwest Airlines' dispatchers to ask them to contact the plane first encountered a recording telling him the phone number had been changed. He dialed the new number, but the phone rang 10 to 20 times without being answered, he told investigators. He hung up, then redialed.
This time, someone at Northwest Airlines dispatchers' office answered the phone — and put him on hold for a few minutes. The controller said he stayed on the phone rather than try calling again because it had been so hard to get through.
Northwest Airlines dispatchers sent messages to the cockpit asking them to contact air traffic controllers, but there was no response.
The Federal Aviation Administration has since said the phone numbers controllers had for Northwest predated its acquisition by Delta and have now been updated.
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What are the major consequences for these pilots, apart from the fact that they are no more in possession of their pilot certificate? Are their benefits at stake?
WP
WP
Last edited by worldpilot; 17th Dec 2009 at 07:13.