NTSB investigating possible nodding off of Northwest pilots
Been there done that.
Early nineties Philly to Orlando; B-757 copilot enjoying the conversation, looking forward to a night out in down town Orlando. I remember watching the TOD come and go but it did not register. Not much further down the road I noticed the Florida Coast appearing on my ND. This got my attention. I called and asked for a descent. No reply. Pulled out a chart, found the correct frequency and got hold of ATC. "Where yo bin?" quoth he "I missed the hand off from Jax" said I. "no kidding. We'll have to hold you to get you down" "Negative We can make it" interjected the captain. Make it we did and nothing more was said.
But... We missed both the hand off and the TOD.
To those that say no way can you loose radio contact remember there's them that have and those that will. This crew appears to have failed to follow the golden rule... it's not the mistake. it's the recovery that counts.
But... We missed both the hand off and the TOD.
To those that say no way can you loose radio contact remember there's them that have and those that will. This crew appears to have failed to follow the golden rule... it's not the mistake. it's the recovery that counts.
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loose rivets and flown it
finally, two real pilots speak out! I've read some things here about how cockpits should be *(and I wish they were), and finally I read about the way things are.
hey, flown it...ever eat a colodny burger???? just wondering...or maybe a monte cristo sandwich? or the trout?
hey, flown it...ever eat a colodny burger???? just wondering...or maybe a monte cristo sandwich? or the trout?
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filejw:
"One thing people overlook is many of the guys i flew with on the 320 seemed computer nerdy. Two nerds get talking way about a software program that is of such importance to their life (bidding) and......"
Your posts are remakable but this one takes the biscuit. So, this is to be expected then? OK, so let's fire all the "nerdy" pilots because they obviously can't be trusted to stay focused for a couple of hours on the job in the presence of electronic equipment. Make it a requirement that you don't know how to update your OS.
filejw:
"Plus NWA had all kinds of stuff and most manuals available to download and study in flight if you wished. "
So what? Is this your idea of an argument for the defense?
"One thing people overlook is many of the guys i flew with on the 320 seemed computer nerdy. Two nerds get talking way about a software program that is of such importance to their life (bidding) and......"
Your posts are remakable but this one takes the biscuit. So, this is to be expected then? OK, so let's fire all the "nerdy" pilots because they obviously can't be trusted to stay focused for a couple of hours on the job in the presence of electronic equipment. Make it a requirement that you don't know how to update your OS.
filejw:
"Plus NWA had all kinds of stuff and most manuals available to download and study in flight if you wished. "
So what? Is this your idea of an argument for the defense?
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I first learned to fly at KPAO airport, near San Francisco. Short final was over ''the duck pond'' with the birds to match. Every landing required evasive action with birds.
Only thing I remember from learning to fly at KPAO was (ironically enough, given the topic of this thread) not to use the radio on a runway on which 80 ops an hour were conducted if the controller could see what you were doing. In short: aviate, don't communicate.
Oh, and the automatic "frequency change approved" as soon as wheels separated from tarmac.
Only thing I remember from learning to fly at KPAO was (ironically enough, given the topic of this thread) not to use the radio on a runway on which 80 ops an hour were conducted if the controller could see what you were doing. In short: aviate, don't communicate.
Oh, and the automatic "frequency change approved" as soon as wheels separated from tarmac.
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It's funny, because one time I was having a planned snooze on a 4 engine piston aircraft, when an engine started making an odd noise.* My first officer said 'I don't know how you did that...you were asleep with your mouth open, and suddenly shouted for me to turn onto (Whatever heading).' Even asleep, I knew that the engine had a fault, and that I wanted to get my butt over land. I'm not sure that I would have been so attentive while being absorbed in another thing that I was passionate about.
New parents in a noisy apartment understand this well. Traffic may pass all night long outside without waking anyone up … but if the new baby should so much as cough, both parents are immediately awake. Experienced pilots (or operators of any complex machines) are going to be much the same way.
I still think the key is specific "games" designed to maintain alertness without diverting too much attention. These games could emphasize skills that a pilot needs on board, anyway, so that they could also work as training aids. They'd be interesting enough to keep a pilot awake, but "mindless" enough that they would not require any intellectual effort.
I've mentioned Tetris in the past because it's a fair example of this type of game. It is very simple to play and doesn't require any intellectual concentration (unlike, say, chess), but it requires enough to keep you from falling asleep. Thus, you stay awake while playing the game, but any distraction (a cockpit alarm, an engine making a funny sound) is still immediately noticed. I'm sure that more games could be developed that would meet these objectives precisely and help to ensure vigilance without compromising situational awareness.
A good test might be to talk while playing the game. If you cannot talk and play it at the same time, it requires too much of your attention. If you can play it and hold a conversation, it requires enough attention to keep you awake, but not so much that it distracts you.
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SD, Try not to read into things buddy. No place do I say any of this is defensible by me. Only what i have been told what happened or think they may use as a defence. This is a rumor network after all and i am just passing on what has been said around this campus.
PS And I still think I ran into more nerdy type guys on the 320, just my opinion. Never said they shouldn't fly .
PS And I still think I ran into more nerdy type guys on the 320, just my opinion. Never said they shouldn't fly .
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filejw,
tx for the clarification, fair enough I suppose in that case. My main point being: if those are really part of their argument, good luck to them with that! [NOT]
They will continue to be toast IMHO, and these "arguments" would not help their cause one iota. On the contrary.
If this is the sort of support people get with their union dues, perhaps they should look elsewhere ......
[
dons the suit again]
tx for the clarification, fair enough I suppose in that case. My main point being: if those are really part of their argument, good luck to them with that! [NOT]
They will continue to be toast IMHO, and these "arguments" would not help their cause one iota. On the contrary.
If this is the sort of support people get with their union dues, perhaps they should look elsewhere ......
[
dons the suit again]
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SD what you write is mostly true and I should say I've seen lots worst come out pretty clean. Guess that's why ALPA dues are 2% and they have so many lawyers on staff. They will exploite any mistake made in the air safety reporting agreement..Good for us I suppose seeing as that's about all we get out of our union.
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ATC unable to contact airliners for one reason or another is a fairly common problem. Here's a possible inexpensive solution. Equip a couple of the FAs with light weight hand helds switched permanently to 121.5 If ATC loses contact with a flight crew for long enough to cause concern they could give the FAs a call. They would then contact the flight crew by intercom and if that failed by a very loud bell or seat shaker. For those cash strapped Airlines perhaps a length of fishing line running under the security door and tied to a delicate part of the pilot would work just as well. The handhelds might also be useful for getting a message out in a hijack situation. Just some thoughts. Cheers R.A.
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Freq change alerts?
Hi,
Non-pilot interested frequent flier. I see a lot of the discussion on this thread has centered around why they didn't hear ATC, which then becomes a discussion about whether they had changed frequency when leaving one ATC sector and entering another.
This implies that with all the other warning bells and whistles there's nothing on the flight deck that alerts the crew to change frequencies? Surely that wouldn't be hard to install? The location at which those frequency changes have to be made would be different from sector to sector, but that's mere data to load into a pc. Couldn't this be a simple safety remedy?
Non-pilot interested frequent flier. I see a lot of the discussion on this thread has centered around why they didn't hear ATC, which then becomes a discussion about whether they had changed frequency when leaving one ATC sector and entering another.
This implies that with all the other warning bells and whistles there's nothing on the flight deck that alerts the crew to change frequencies? Surely that wouldn't be hard to install? The location at which those frequency changes have to be made would be different from sector to sector, but that's mere data to load into a pc. Couldn't this be a simple safety remedy?
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It"s great that the world has great thinkers as the last two poster and i mean this sincerely as any idea is better than none. But Ill have to give it to RA over CC as any procedure that gives a 25 year old FA the job to handle any of my delicate parts is OK with me..Jw
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Some great ideas here! 
Maybe the cabin crew could wear 'snore detectors' then they could be alerted if the pilots fall asleep?
Or maybe have a 'view the flight deck' as an option on the in flight entertainment then any passenger could alert the cabin crew if they see anything untoward happening in the cockpit.
I like the one about cabin crew fitted with radios tuned to 121.5.
Tracy this is London, could you check the crew are okay?
London this is Tracy
Is that Tracy on the XXX123
Mayd....
No this is Tracy on the CCC123
Sorry Tracy
Mayd....
Hi London this is Tracy on XXX123 what's the problem
No problem, I'm calling Tracy CCC123
Mayd...
Okay
Did someone call Tracy DDD123
Mayd...
No Tracy XXX123
Oh okay
Was that a Mayday I heard.
I don't know
Who said that?
Maybe the cabin crew could wear 'snore detectors' then they could be alerted if the pilots fall asleep?
Or maybe have a 'view the flight deck' as an option on the in flight entertainment then any passenger could alert the cabin crew if they see anything untoward happening in the cockpit.
I like the one about cabin crew fitted with radios tuned to 121.5.
Tracy this is London, could you check the crew are okay?
London this is Tracy
Is that Tracy on the XXX123
Mayd....
No this is Tracy on the CCC123
Sorry Tracy
Mayd....
Hi London this is Tracy on XXX123 what's the problem
No problem, I'm calling Tracy CCC123
Mayd...
Okay
Did someone call Tracy DDD123
Mayd...
No Tracy XXX123
Oh okay
Was that a Mayday I heard.
I don't know
Who said that?
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the final solution
Keep International RESCUE on alert. AS soon as someone doesn't ''check in'' on a new freq, off goes Thunderbird 1 to intercept.
AND THEN, and here is the big one. CHARGE THE PILOTS the fuel bill. All pilots must have a credit card on file with International Rescue and UPON LAUNCH are billed.
Should it be a real problem, Thunderbird 2 can be scrambled shortly thereafter and the pilots won't be charged.
BUT if all Thunderbird 1 has to do is wake up the pilots...MONEY.
TB1 will never be launched with the MONEY hanging over cheap pilots!
AND THEN, and here is the big one. CHARGE THE PILOTS the fuel bill. All pilots must have a credit card on file with International Rescue and UPON LAUNCH are billed.
Should it be a real problem, Thunderbird 2 can be scrambled shortly thereafter and the pilots won't be charged.
BUT if all Thunderbird 1 has to do is wake up the pilots...MONEY.
TB1 will never be launched with the MONEY hanging over cheap pilots!
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Funny you should say that.
I'm surprised John in Thunderbird 5 isn't aware of these issues already?!
LOL
FOK
PS: I never remember him falling asleep or using a laptop and missing a distress call!
I'm surprised John in Thunderbird 5 isn't aware of these issues already?!
LOL
FOK
PS: I never remember him falling asleep or using a laptop and missing a distress call!
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Abandon 1930's Voice-VHF ATC
Observation posted by CafeClub (a few slots ago):
CPDLC Controller-Pilot Data-Link Communications
Controller-Pilot Datalink (CPDLC)
Avionics Magazine :: Perspectives: Data Link In Europe: An Overview
"... with all the other warning bells and whistles there's nothing on the flight deck that alerts the crew to change frequencies? ... wouldn't be hard to install? ... that's mere data to load ... this be a simple safety remedy?"
The "voice" over VHF COMM is the main problem. The solution [Controller Pilot Data Link Communications Program] would solve several worse problems (blocked calls in busy locations). _OBSERVATIONS ON FAA’S CONTROLLER-PILOT DATA LINK COMMUNICATIONS PROGRAM_, FAA Report Number: AV-2004-101, September 30, 2004"... FAA decided to cancel the current CPDLC program for a number of reasons.... In late 1998, FAA and industry ... reached a general agreement on the specific technology to transmit messages (Very High Frequency Digital Link Mode-2: VDL-2) and a phased approach for moving forward with CPDLC in the en route environment.... American Airlines agreed to serve as the lead airline and begin equipping aircraft with new avionics for trials ...
According to FAA, CPDLC was expected to reduce aircraft direct operating costs by reducing delays and improving efficiency through decreasing
The USA's "regulator" (FAA) recently blamed the "operator's" human-pilot in this NORDO case. If the USA's air safety system has any integrity remaining, then the USA's "independent Safety Board" will eventually cite the "regulator" for negligence for not developing CPDLC in a timely manor; for not acknowledging the fact that "voice" COMM is out-dated, for still relying on the 1930's method of "voice" COMM for Air Traffic Management.According to FAA, CPDLC was expected to reduce aircraft direct operating costs by reducing delays and improving efficiency through decreasing
(1) congestion on the voice channels, and
(2) operational errors resulting from misunderstood instructions and read-back errors...."
(2) operational errors resulting from misunderstood instructions and read-back errors...."
CPDLC Controller-Pilot Data-Link Communications
Controller-Pilot Datalink (CPDLC)
Avionics Magazine :: Perspectives: Data Link In Europe: An Overview
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Yes those were the days - dark night, rain, turbulence and in cloud most of the way.
When I were a lad working 26 hours a night, 8 nights a week.
Autopilot - luxury!
No question of a laptop in the cockpit in those days (not that long since, it has to be said!). (Yes I know laptops weren't invented then, but that's not the point!).
KR
FOK
When I were a lad working 26 hours a night, 8 nights a week.
Autopilot - luxury!
No question of a laptop in the cockpit in those days (not that long since, it has to be said!). (Yes I know laptops weren't invented then, but that's not the point!).
KR
FOK
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Abandon 1930's Voice-VHF ATC
Seconded and endorsed fully.
sending clear, UNAMBIGUOUS text messages that show up on your screen (yes, a separate screen) that gradually demand your attention - you type in a response - or hold a key and verbalize a response and press send.)
Sounds good to me! _ and I wouldnt even have to toss up a few quid to get the cheap headphones!
Seriously, there would be nothing wrong with that, the cockpit doors used to be open, once upon a time.
Pilot incapacitation is a serious business. How long you think before vials of nerve agents are released on board with that specific intention? How much would it take?
Everytime I hear of a plane off w/o response I cringe.
The ideas we are hearing so far are good ones, and many, long overdue:
In no particular order..
1)green granite: Remove the autopilot, that'll keep people awake
Said as a joke perhaps, but good idea - have the pilots fly the plane, have the auto-pilot monitor the pilot inputs (dual stick input mode,AP controlling) after the 'session' pilots could be 'scored' on how many times the auto pilot had to 'suggest' more optimum and fuel efficient inputs. Flying skills and situational awareness will be maintained, and pilots will be 'married' to the aircraft again.
IGH: Abandon 1930's Voice-VHF ATC
100%
CafeClub: Freq change alerts?
YES. No brainer again. An IPOD or laptop with built in GPS would know where you are, and based on heading know what sector and frequency would come up next. This would insert a message into your queue (with increasing demand for a response as mentioned earlier)
sending clear, UNAMBIGUOUS text messages that show up on your screen (yes, a separate screen) that gradually demand your attention - you type in a response - or hold a key and verbalize a response and press send.)
Or maybe have a 'view the flight deck' as an option on the in flight entertainment then any passenger could alert the cabin crew if they see anything untoward happening in the cockpit.
Seriously, there would be nothing wrong with that, the cockpit doors used to be open, once upon a time.
Pilot incapacitation is a serious business. How long you think before vials of nerve agents are released on board with that specific intention? How much would it take?
Everytime I hear of a plane off w/o response I cringe.
The ideas we are hearing so far are good ones, and many, long overdue:
In no particular order..
1)green granite: Remove the autopilot, that'll keep people awake
Said as a joke perhaps, but good idea - have the pilots fly the plane, have the auto-pilot monitor the pilot inputs (dual stick input mode,AP controlling) after the 'session' pilots could be 'scored' on how many times the auto pilot had to 'suggest' more optimum and fuel efficient inputs. Flying skills and situational awareness will be maintained, and pilots will be 'married' to the aircraft again.
IGH: Abandon 1930's Voice-VHF ATC
100%
CafeClub: Freq change alerts?
YES. No brainer again. An IPOD or laptop with built in GPS would know where you are, and based on heading know what sector and frequency would come up next. This would insert a message into your queue (with increasing demand for a response as mentioned earlier)