NTSB investigating possible nodding off of Northwest pilots
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: memphis, tn
Age: 66
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I read the report...NTSB clobbered the FAA ATC controllers, as well as the crew. Interesting that none of the FEDS were in the news, fired, or had reporters camped out on their lawns for an interview.
Chuck
Chuck
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Suncorp Stadium
Age: 62
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am not sure if they were really asleep or just sloppy to the extreme, but I am amaze at the arguments put forth to defend them! Had this happened to pilots from the third world, all kinds of utter racist insinuations and innuendoes would have been dished out about the lack of discipline, incompetence of the pilots. Utterly crappy...........
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: EU
Posts: 644
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Both of these aviators are well respected among their peers. They found themselves buried in a mountain of changes by virtue of a merger, that neither had anticipated, and were simply trying to get a handle on SOME of it. Wrong time/wrong place? Absolutely. They've said as much--not publicly, because of lawyers (...whatever you say can and WILL be used against you...). They were not asleep, as some have suggested. I was not in the cockpit (obviously), and cannot state emphatically (as some have) as to what they were doing. However, this I do know. Neither of these fellows are bold face liars. They are men of integrity, and capable of error, like any man. I understand the issues of what is expected of airmen, so don't school me on such lectures. These gentlemen are not slackers, second-rate, or bottom of the barrel aviators. If they were such, I would not go "out on a limb" for either. It is my sincere hope to see both of them back on the line ASAP, and wish each of them the very best in this most stressful time.
Regards,
Chuck
Regards,
Chuck
Join Date: May 2009
Location: sfo
Age: 70
Posts: 309
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Looks like a finale
According to a WSJ article today, Capt. Cheney retired, and F/O Cole will not be returning...
Pilots of Runaway Jet Grounded - WSJ.com
Pilots of Runaway Jet Grounded - WSJ.com
Sorry to see what looks to me like two perfectly good pilots disposed of in a black/white manner. X time in the penalty box, retraining, etc, might have been a worthy course of action. Oh well, I don't run that airline.
About radio calls, handoffs, and ATC.
There is a behavior pattern I developed over the years which I tried to teach to my flight students. It seemed to work OK for me in ATC (often IFR) environment when getting handed off from one freq/controller to another.
1. You or ATC make contact on radio for Event or, you are just getting a handoff enroute
2. ATC says "Aircraft ABC, Contact Snuffy Center/Approach on XXX.XX"
3. Read back "Roger, Snuffy Center/Approach XXX.XX."
4. Switch to that freq, try to contact Snuffy Center/Approach on XXX.XX
6. You and ATC then jointly figure out who to contact when and on what freq until a decent handoff is achieved.
This may not be a foolproof algorithm, but it seemed to work, and was imbedded as a habit pattern before I earned my wings.
What strikes me as odd about this incident: most pilots have a very similar habit pattern schooled into them very early in their flying/IFR careers.
So my exam question: how do you lose that fundamental right foot left foot right foot pattern? It's analogous to walking, IFR/Airways comms wise, so how do you unlearn walking?
I don't get why the lack of successful handover confirmation wasn't a red flag, but maybe it's pretty common.
Is it?
The other thing about this incident that gets me curious.
Delta had an infamous 727 event (DFW??) where airplane took off with wrong flap setting (87/88?) which resulted in crash. (FE was a guy I knew a little, good friend of my roomate, and was let go due to being on probation at the time). Much was made for the following years of "sterile cockpit" and what that means, with that specific mishap being used as an example.
If I remember right, Sterile Cockpit was (is???) a regimen that was for ground phase, departure phase, terminal phase, ground phase specific task management and cockpit environment ... not cruise phase specific.
Has that changed? Put another way, what I remember of what "Sterile Cockpit" would not have been of aid to the crew in this phase of flight.
About radio calls, handoffs, and ATC.
There is a behavior pattern I developed over the years which I tried to teach to my flight students. It seemed to work OK for me in ATC (often IFR) environment when getting handed off from one freq/controller to another.
1. You or ATC make contact on radio for Event or, you are just getting a handoff enroute
2. ATC says "Aircraft ABC, Contact Snuffy Center/Approach on XXX.XX"
3. Read back "Roger, Snuffy Center/Approach XXX.XX."
4. Switch to that freq, try to contact Snuffy Center/Approach on XXX.XX
4a. If they respond to you, all is sweetness and light. Go To Next task, which is talk to Snuffy Center/Approach and do whatever it is you need to do.
5. If Snuffy Center/Approach don't reply, go back to previous freq and tell your ATC voice "No Joy contacting Snuffy Center/Approach on XXX.XX."6. You and ATC then jointly figure out who to contact when and on what freq until a decent handoff is achieved.
This may not be a foolproof algorithm, but it seemed to work, and was imbedded as a habit pattern before I earned my wings.
What strikes me as odd about this incident: most pilots have a very similar habit pattern schooled into them very early in their flying/IFR careers.
So my exam question: how do you lose that fundamental right foot left foot right foot pattern? It's analogous to walking, IFR/Airways comms wise, so how do you unlearn walking?
I don't get why the lack of successful handover confirmation wasn't a red flag, but maybe it's pretty common.
Is it?
The other thing about this incident that gets me curious.
Delta had an infamous 727 event (DFW??) where airplane took off with wrong flap setting (87/88?) which resulted in crash. (FE was a guy I knew a little, good friend of my roomate, and was let go due to being on probation at the time). Much was made for the following years of "sterile cockpit" and what that means, with that specific mishap being used as an example.
If I remember right, Sterile Cockpit was (is???) a regimen that was for ground phase, departure phase, terminal phase, ground phase specific task management and cockpit environment ... not cruise phase specific.
Has that changed? Put another way, what I remember of what "Sterile Cockpit" would not have been of aid to the crew in this phase of flight.
Last edited by Lonewolf_50; 16th Jun 2010 at 19:38.
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: In a far better place
Posts: 2,480
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
According to a WSJ article today, Capt. Cheney retired, and F/O Cole will not be returning...
Very generous of Delta to allow these two who were derelict in their duties and responsibilities to resign rather than being terminated regarding the Pilot Record Improvement Act of 1996.
However with the publicity in the media and revocation of their airman certificates it will be a difficult feat for these two to secure employment with a quality carrier.
Very generous of Delta to allow these two who were derelict in their duties and responsibilities to resign rather than being terminated regarding the Pilot Record Improvement Act of 1996.
However with the publicity in the media and revocation of their airman certificates it will be a difficult feat for these two to secure employment with a quality carrier.
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Sand pit
Age: 54
Posts: 460
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Everyone has missed a radio call or handoff...it happens for one reason or another.
As humans we get tired...Everyone has probably experienced that and can relate.
I have no doubt that they are above average aviators, and men of integrity, but have a hard time grasping how a merger, and being buried in a mountain of changes would cause you to lose positional awareness to such a degree that you overfly destination and ignore a discontinuity on the FMS/Map. I would think it was better to say I was sleeping?
I try to learn from others mistakes, and know except for the grace of God go I- but hard to understand this one.
As humans we get tired...Everyone has probably experienced that and can relate.
I have no doubt that they are above average aviators, and men of integrity, but have a hard time grasping how a merger, and being buried in a mountain of changes would cause you to lose positional awareness to such a degree that you overfly destination and ignore a discontinuity on the FMS/Map. I would think it was better to say I was sleeping?
I try to learn from others mistakes, and know except for the grace of God go I- but hard to understand this one.
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: US
Posts: 497
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yes, saying they fell asleep has worked before and would have worked better than the laptop story. I think two weeks on the beach would have been adequate disciplinary action but the press got hold of it and you know how that goes. Sorry two careers got ruined because of it.
Guest
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: On the Beach
Posts: 3,336
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
p51guy:
They cooked their own goose by talking before they had union representation. And, ATC "helped" by failing to take appropriate post-911 action.
Having an aircraft fly along that long without comm had shades of 911; that had half the Congress wanting their hides.
They were "toast" on any number of levels.
Yes, saying they fell asleep has worked before and would have worked better than the laptop story. I think two weeks on the beach would have been adequate disciplinary action but the press got hold of it and you know how that goes. Sorry two careers got ruined because of it.
Having an aircraft fly along that long without comm had shades of 911; that had half the Congress wanting their hides.
They were "toast" on any number of levels.
Guest
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: On the Beach
Posts: 3,336
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
protectthehelmet:
I think you mean center or FIR boundaries. Sectors change from busy to non-busy times, etc. A good FMS has the frequncies. My JeppView has the center boundaries; I don't know whether those would show up in JeppView's moving map version.
(on paper charts) sector boundries, frequency, etc...even time zones are shown.
on moving map displays, are sector boundries shown????? just wondering
on moving map displays, are sector boundries shown????? just wondering
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Rockytop, Tennessee, USA
Posts: 5,898
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Whatever happened to the "real" delta Pilots that landed the B767 in the Taxiway in ATL the next day.
You can't expect RD's to be treated like them Delta North boys.
See: Delta Pilots Who Landed on Taxiway Set to Avoid Punishment - WSJ.com
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 265
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just a comment from an av enthusiast...
Neither crew performed adequately, and both crews' errors are somewhat understandable.
I think it boils down to two things: A difference in how each crew "owned" their mistake, and a difference in corporate culture.
What is noteworthy about both incidents is how big a role media now plays. A pilot has beans for dinner and farts, and presto! the WSJ has an analyst of one sort or another covering his gas.
At a time when workloads are up, pay is down, and job security is rapidly sliding away down the slope, pilots are under more instantaneous scrutiny than ever before - and often this scrutiny is the result of second-string media talent putting together a story which will sparkle on a resume.
As a young man I considered becoming a pilot, and set out in that direction. I had truly enjoyed studying for my PPL but it brought forth a realization that I'm lousy at thinking in three dimensions and that I cannot do basic math quickly. I decided after my first solo that my skills were not adequate - nothing bad happened, it was a wonderful experience, but it made me realize that I wasn't cut for it. I've had the pleasure of playing co-pilot in small planes over the years, and I'm thankful for the friends who have indulged me while watching over me and keeping both of us safe.
I also considered journalism, but decided to pursue electronics instead because I saw more future potential for technical savvy.
I'm glad that I made those decisions.
It would be heartbreaking to be close to retirement age and see the industry in its current condition. And it would be absolutely embarrassing to be a journalist these days.
RR
As a postscript:
Supremely hilarious, PTH!
Neither crew performed adequately, and both crews' errors are somewhat understandable.
I think it boils down to two things: A difference in how each crew "owned" their mistake, and a difference in corporate culture.
What is noteworthy about both incidents is how big a role media now plays. A pilot has beans for dinner and farts, and presto! the WSJ has an analyst of one sort or another covering his gas.
At a time when workloads are up, pay is down, and job security is rapidly sliding away down the slope, pilots are under more instantaneous scrutiny than ever before - and often this scrutiny is the result of second-string media talent putting together a story which will sparkle on a resume.
As a young man I considered becoming a pilot, and set out in that direction. I had truly enjoyed studying for my PPL but it brought forth a realization that I'm lousy at thinking in three dimensions and that I cannot do basic math quickly. I decided after my first solo that my skills were not adequate - nothing bad happened, it was a wonderful experience, but it made me realize that I wasn't cut for it. I've had the pleasure of playing co-pilot in small planes over the years, and I'm thankful for the friends who have indulged me while watching over me and keeping both of us safe.
I also considered journalism, but decided to pursue electronics instead because I saw more future potential for technical savvy.
I'm glad that I made those decisions.
It would be heartbreaking to be close to retirement age and see the industry in its current condition. And it would be absolutely embarrassing to be a journalist these days.
RR
As a postscript:
the real delta pilot landed on time! ;-)
Guest
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: On the Beach
Posts: 3,336
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
p51guy:
As inept as landing on a taxiway is, they "fessed up" and didn't create a national scandal.
They are being "retrained." That means to me, they got some unpaid time off, and likely have a "strike one" permanent letter of operational reprimand in their file. And, they probably are going to suffer a whole lot of supervised line time.
Delta thinks landing on the taxiway is better than overflying your airport and landing on a runway????
They are being "retrained." That means to me, they got some unpaid time off, and likely have a "strike one" permanent letter of operational reprimand in their file. And, they probably are going to suffer a whole lot of supervised line time.
That means to me, they got some unpaid time off, and likely have a "strike one" permanent letter of operational reprimand in their file. And, they probably are going to suffer a whole lot of supervised line time.
