NTSB investigating possible nodding off of Northwest pilots
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Sorry good readers of Prune but if a 'nice' pilot can get the sack for allowing Robbie Savage onto the Flight Deck, then these 2 guys have let themselves and the profession down extremely badly and should face the same consequences.
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My oh my but there's been a lot of posts on this topic, hasn't there? I'd like AIRLINE PILOTS ONLY, PLEASE, to tell me they really believe they were using their laptops and missed all those calls from ATC and others. No pilot is going to remove his/her headset without turning on the speaker, especially if the other pilot is doing the same. There is just no way these two could've done this for NINETY MINUTES. Think about it. Sit there at your computer and start the clock. Can't be done without knowing what else is going on. Let's face it; they were asleep, period.
Naturally, the foregoing is the opinion of the author and not official fact.
Naturally, the foregoing is the opinion of the author and not official fact.
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ATPL holders
Banning laptops seems to be the flavor of the moment, that'll sure solve everything.
As long as we apply basic CRM this kind of incident should never happen!
In certain off-peak load circumstances one of the pilots can do both PF/PNF while the other -
all.But the 2 ATPL holders must not sleep, play games, listen to iPod, cook roster, poke body orifices etc, at the same time.
They should be criminally prosecuted as well!
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There is just no way these two could've done this for NINETY MINUTES. Think about it. Sit there at your computer and start the clock. Can't be done without knowing what else is going on. Let's face it; they were asleep, period.
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Totally unrelated
Saw part of the movie "Brokeback Mountain" what a preposterous tale! I could hardly sit through it, and didnt sit down at all after it was done.
Coincidentally, the movie ran for around 90 minutes...
Coincidentally, the movie ran for around 90 minutes...
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Voice comm, big sectors, limit VHF-range, few freq changes
Question & assertion posed by DC-ATE a few slots ago:
This happened regularly in earlier decades -- an airliner might run through several sectors, NORDO, because he's still on a frequency way back and now out-of-range. Since September 2001, this NORDO-at-cruise has since become a big-deal -- and most try to also listen on 121.5 on their other VHF (but that other radio can also cause unwanted DISTRACTION blocking the Primary Radio).
There are a few very large ATC sectors in the west (for example one ZSLC's -sectors covers a huge area from Cut Bank to the south and east), and NWA pilots work in some of these largest sectors (few freq-changes with ZSLC using various remote xmtr sites for different locations inside the same huge sector). Inside such a huge ATC sector, with ZSLC x-mtg on a remote transmitter, pilots often won't hear many of ZSLC's conversations using other sites).
Really, in decades past we all suffered occasionally such a NORDO event, when running into the next sector while still on the OLD FREQUENCY. And I've seen such a case, when an airliner traveled past the usual Top of Descent Point: But in decades past nobody cared, pilots would quietly regain their lost-SA, recontact ATC on the local geographic high frequency, and then turn and descend.
Really -- it was no big deal, and it happened regularly, and (prior to Sept01) nobody cared.
"... really believe ... using their laptops and missed all those calls from ATC and others. No pilot is going to remove his/her headset without turning on the speaker, especially if the other pilot is doing the same.... for NINETY MINUTES."
It is not difficult to "miss all those calls" from a transmitter site way back, out-of-range.This happened regularly in earlier decades -- an airliner might run through several sectors, NORDO, because he's still on a frequency way back and now out-of-range. Since September 2001, this NORDO-at-cruise has since become a big-deal -- and most try to also listen on 121.5 on their other VHF (but that other radio can also cause unwanted DISTRACTION blocking the Primary Radio).
There are a few very large ATC sectors in the west (for example one ZSLC's -sectors covers a huge area from Cut Bank to the south and east), and NWA pilots work in some of these largest sectors (few freq-changes with ZSLC using various remote xmtr sites for different locations inside the same huge sector). Inside such a huge ATC sector, with ZSLC x-mtg on a remote transmitter, pilots often won't hear many of ZSLC's conversations using other sites).
Really, in decades past we all suffered occasionally such a NORDO event, when running into the next sector while still on the OLD FREQUENCY. And I've seen such a case, when an airliner traveled past the usual Top of Descent Point: But in decades past nobody cared, pilots would quietly regain their lost-SA, recontact ATC on the local geographic high frequency, and then turn and descend.
Really -- it was no big deal, and it happened regularly, and (prior to Sept01) nobody cared.
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Naturally, I'll have to disagree with some of what you've written. I flew in 'decades past' for many years and through all those areas you mention and NEVER had a problem like this one. Sure we might have been 'out of contact' for a spell, BUT.....we KNEW that and acted accordingly.
We're all entitled to our own opinions abviously, and I happen to not go along with yours. No offense.
We're all entitled to our own opinions abviously, and I happen to not go along with yours. No offense.
tailstrikecharles:
"Perhaps you defended this behaviour yourself by endorsing it with your acquiesence".
I note that you and I are of a similar age so it is important to me that I respond to your posting otherwise I simply would not bother to reply.
How much experience do you actually have of deadheading on the jump seat of US registered aircraft?
How much experience do you have of deadheading on the jump seat of any other company's aircraft?
I am, and have proved to be, a great survivor. If I ever saw something going on from the jump seat I would have no hestitation in forceibly pointing out my worries about what was going on. However, I would be considered to be an ar*sehole if I were to suggest that the crew stopped discussing the bidline system etc and got on with flying "their" aeroplane (not mine - for I am hitching a ride).
I don't mind relating one occasion when I did make "subtle suggestions". I got back to JFK from SJU one night and the F/E and I managed to get the two jumpseats on the one and only Amtran DC-10-10. We knew the aeroplane well for we had flown her on many occasions with Laker when she was G-BELO.
Old "BELO", as she was known, was the very first DC-10 to take to the air.
She was now N183AT.
We got on the flight deck (there were no seats in the cabin) and the first thing that got my attention was a mini-ghettoblaster sitting on the centre consol - it was quite loud.
We eventually started up and taxied out to the end of 22R at JFK and there was then a discussion about what derate they should use for take off. The figure they came up with was less than that that Father and I had used earlier in the day with a sistership when all we had to do was go to SJU and not across the Atlantic with 380 passengers!
I intervened and suggested that no derate was appropriate.
We got to Gatwick, but, it would have to be said, that Father and I spent a lot of time teaching them about how to operate the aeroplane properly.
So, would you now tell us how you have responded by suggesting alternative procedures to the operating crew whilst sitting on the jumpseat of some other airline?
I don't know about you but I am never too old to learn.
P.S. Last time I looked, "Old BELO" was "Project Orbis" - grand old lady and she flew beautifully - mainly because the test pilots had sorted her out right at the beginning.
"Perhaps you defended this behaviour yourself by endorsing it with your acquiesence".
I note that you and I are of a similar age so it is important to me that I respond to your posting otherwise I simply would not bother to reply.
How much experience do you actually have of deadheading on the jump seat of US registered aircraft?
How much experience do you have of deadheading on the jump seat of any other company's aircraft?
I am, and have proved to be, a great survivor. If I ever saw something going on from the jump seat I would have no hestitation in forceibly pointing out my worries about what was going on. However, I would be considered to be an ar*sehole if I were to suggest that the crew stopped discussing the bidline system etc and got on with flying "their" aeroplane (not mine - for I am hitching a ride).
I don't mind relating one occasion when I did make "subtle suggestions". I got back to JFK from SJU one night and the F/E and I managed to get the two jumpseats on the one and only Amtran DC-10-10. We knew the aeroplane well for we had flown her on many occasions with Laker when she was G-BELO.
Old "BELO", as she was known, was the very first DC-10 to take to the air.
She was now N183AT.
We got on the flight deck (there were no seats in the cabin) and the first thing that got my attention was a mini-ghettoblaster sitting on the centre consol - it was quite loud.
We eventually started up and taxied out to the end of 22R at JFK and there was then a discussion about what derate they should use for take off. The figure they came up with was less than that that Father and I had used earlier in the day with a sistership when all we had to do was go to SJU and not across the Atlantic with 380 passengers!
I intervened and suggested that no derate was appropriate.
We got to Gatwick, but, it would have to be said, that Father and I spent a lot of time teaching them about how to operate the aeroplane properly.
So, would you now tell us how you have responded by suggesting alternative procedures to the operating crew whilst sitting on the jumpseat of some other airline?
I don't know about you but I am never too old to learn.
P.S. Last time I looked, "Old BELO" was "Project Orbis" - grand old lady and she flew beautifully - mainly because the test pilots had sorted her out right at the beginning.
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DC,
Hate to bust your bubble but the forensics of the laptops in question apparently tell a different story. Also because the FAA and NTSB broke the protocol of the Air Safety Reporting System that DAL is a participant in the FAA may have limited any kind of disciplinary action they may want to impose...
Hate to bust your bubble but the forensics of the laptops in question apparently tell a different story. Also because the FAA and NTSB broke the protocol of the Air Safety Reporting System that DAL is a participant in the FAA may have limited any kind of disciplinary action they may want to impose...
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It is hard to understand how tired pilots, at night, nearing TOD, could possibly be so engrossed in anything on a laptop to miss their chance to get back on the ground. Sleeping was the only thing that it could have been and still make sense. This SLF thinks there is still more to this story.
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Hate to bust your bubble but the forensics of the laptops in question apparently tell a different story.
The NTSB has not taken or examined the laptops that the pilots were using, spokesman Ted Lopatkiewicz said Tuesday.
"The pilots said they were using them. So I don't know what any examination of them" would do to further the investigation, Lopatkiewicz said.
"The pilots said they were using them. So I don't know what any examination of them" would do to further the investigation, Lopatkiewicz said.
Did the NTSB really ignore the laptops? Or was there something found on them?
Also because the FAA and NTSB broke the protocol of the Air Safety Reporting System that DAL is a participant in the FAA may have limited any kind of disciplinary action they may want to impose...
On one hand, I know the rest of us will pay for this idiotic episode for years to come with laptop bans, cockpit cameras and who knows what else. And yet, I wonder if the NW188 crew is being skewered for cooperating and saying too much or, as some have implied, being caught in a lie?
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Bubba, NTSB may not have but my info came from an ALPA type. FYI ALPA will not be backing down because DAL is new to the system and seems like FAA and NTSB broke the rules agreed too. Consider the source, they are going to spin it ALPA's way but they are usually close.
Plus NWA had all kinds of stuff and most manuals available to download and study in flight if you wished.
Plus NWA had all kinds of stuff and most manuals available to download and study in flight if you wished.
Last edited by filejw; 6th Nov 2009 at 18:42.
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Second hand, but yes...ALPA has lots of resources and if you are telling the truth they will pull out all the stops. NW was the same way but not so sure about the DAL "family"..
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Even if they flew out of range of the last controller the first thing the controller does is call another aircraft to relay the frequency change. It happens every day. It has happened to me a few times and it is no big deal getting back to the right frequency. Even if nobody relays silence for a while would prompt you to make a radio check. If not successful get a chart out and find a frequency that works where you are.
Longtimelurker
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One thing people overlook is many of the guys i flew with on the 320 seemed computer nerdy. Two nerds get talking way about a software program that is of such importance to their life (bidding) and......
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alpa, the truth, and pulling out all the stops...NOT
I was in ALPA. I voted it off my property along with thousands of others.
The truth...if you believe in the seniority system, the most experienced pilot at an airline should be senior to the least experienced ( in terms of time with an airline). Even Randy Babbit is talking about cockpit experience.
YET ALPA insists that someone with 7 years airline experience be senior to someone with 20 years experience...IF YOU MERGE.
So don't think alpa will do anything for these guys unless it helps ALPA.
I've seen ALPA provided with the TRUTH and still make a ''deal'' to get a problem done with instead of following all the way through.
SO be careful. No one but YOU has your own back.
No one knows the real truth. Well, maybe the two pilots involved. Believe me, if the news hadn't changed so radically, and tragically(ft. hood, rip), this would still be front page stuff.
I like DC-ATE's views. I disagree with him about sleep in this situation. There is something that drivers know as highway hypnosis. There is something akin to that in the cockpit. Call it what you will. These guys zoned out. Fatigue? Fumes? Hypoxia? Old Age? Who knows?What was the airflow like in that cockpit?
It was hearing about dumb things like this that alerted me to what I had to do to stay on top of things in the cockpit. I have even resorted to singing the "Flintstone's theme song" with the other pilot to stay alert.
My generation remembers the story about the cargo 4 engine jet out over the pacific, having overshot LA...all three guys in the cockpit were sound asleep. Selcal finally woke them up.
No computers there...just three dopes.
There have been ineuendo that sex was involved here...HA.
Stuff happens. Let's learn from it.
The truth...if you believe in the seniority system, the most experienced pilot at an airline should be senior to the least experienced ( in terms of time with an airline). Even Randy Babbit is talking about cockpit experience.
YET ALPA insists that someone with 7 years airline experience be senior to someone with 20 years experience...IF YOU MERGE.
So don't think alpa will do anything for these guys unless it helps ALPA.
I've seen ALPA provided with the TRUTH and still make a ''deal'' to get a problem done with instead of following all the way through.
SO be careful. No one but YOU has your own back.
No one knows the real truth. Well, maybe the two pilots involved. Believe me, if the news hadn't changed so radically, and tragically(ft. hood, rip), this would still be front page stuff.
I like DC-ATE's views. I disagree with him about sleep in this situation. There is something that drivers know as highway hypnosis. There is something akin to that in the cockpit. Call it what you will. These guys zoned out. Fatigue? Fumes? Hypoxia? Old Age? Who knows?What was the airflow like in that cockpit?
It was hearing about dumb things like this that alerted me to what I had to do to stay on top of things in the cockpit. I have even resorted to singing the "Flintstone's theme song" with the other pilot to stay alert.
My generation remembers the story about the cargo 4 engine jet out over the pacific, having overshot LA...all three guys in the cockpit were sound asleep. Selcal finally woke them up.
No computers there...just three dopes.
There have been ineuendo that sex was involved here...HA.
Stuff happens. Let's learn from it.
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Pro, you are mixing politics of a group ( and I agree with you on what you say ) with an individual incident and they are two different things. When an individual has a problem ALPA is the folks you want in your court. Be it discipline or medical help. The way they treat us as group on issue like seniority, they are the worst. Don't mix the two...
Psychophysiological entity
Way back, I took a contract flying three days a week to facilitate running a computer company that I owned. The pressure to learn the new technologies was huge, and I found the cruise sections of the flights very frustrating because I'd become used to soaking up knowledge for a large part of every day and the time seemed so wasted.
One time, and one time only, I took some computer stuff to read in the cruise. It immediately became obvious that I could not allow myself to become absorbed by another subject...my mind was pulled completely away from the job in moments. I slung the papers in my case and got on with being board. It's astonishing just how much you're taking in when you think there's nothing much going on.
It's funny, because one time I was having a planned snooze on a 4 engine piston aircraft, when an engine started making an odd noise.* My first officer said 'I don't know how you did that...you were asleep with your mouth open, and suddenly shouted for me to turn onto (Whatever heading).' Even asleep, I knew that the engine had a fault, and that I wanted to get my butt over land. I'm not sure that I would have been so attentive while being absorbed in another thing that I was passionate about.
So, the inference is that being distracted by something absorbing can be more of a problem than snoozing!
*(a valve head had busted off, and was rattling round on top of the piston.)
One time, and one time only, I took some computer stuff to read in the cruise. It immediately became obvious that I could not allow myself to become absorbed by another subject...my mind was pulled completely away from the job in moments. I slung the papers in my case and got on with being board. It's astonishing just how much you're taking in when you think there's nothing much going on.
It's funny, because one time I was having a planned snooze on a 4 engine piston aircraft, when an engine started making an odd noise.* My first officer said 'I don't know how you did that...you were asleep with your mouth open, and suddenly shouted for me to turn onto (Whatever heading).' Even asleep, I knew that the engine had a fault, and that I wanted to get my butt over land. I'm not sure that I would have been so attentive while being absorbed in another thing that I was passionate about.
So, the inference is that being distracted by something absorbing can be more of a problem than snoozing!
*(a valve head had busted off, and was rattling round on top of the piston.)