ATTENTION B767/A340 CREWS!
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Pete O'Tube - you mean you've got more than one identity? Shock, horror!! Don't let Who? hear that or he might cyberstalk you too! 
I suspect that Comrade RightsFlyer meant that your nick could be misconstrued as an, ahem, 'rogering'.
Cheers! - or as Capt Claret would say, "Bottums Up!!"
The rich capitalist oppressor Guvnor
[ 08 September 2001: Message edited by: The Guvnor ]
I suspect that Comrade RightsFlyer meant that your nick could be misconstrued as an, ahem, 'rogering'.
Cheers! - or as Capt Claret would say, "Bottums Up!!"
The rich capitalist oppressor Guvnor
[ 08 September 2001: Message edited by: The Guvnor ]
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Guv - I pride myself in that I'm currently running 12 idents. You ain't lived unless you've had the opportunity to argue against,or support, yourself-and folks still take this forum seriously!
[ 08 September 2001: Message edited by: Pete Otube ]
[ 08 September 2001: Message edited by: Pete Otube ]
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Shock!Horror!
How many of the posters on pprune are schitso..... skitzo,...scytso...dammit , multiple posters.
Danny, your registration numbers are being severely distorted, the truth is out, there are probably hordes of them out there bickering to and fro amongst themselves.
Guvnor is probably Who?'s alter ego.
This could get really complex.
How many of the posters on pprune are schitso..... skitzo,...scytso...dammit , multiple posters.
Danny, your registration numbers are being severely distorted, the truth is out, there are probably hordes of them out there bickering to and fro amongst themselves.
Guvnor is probably Who?'s alter ego.
This could get really complex.
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I admit it. I'm really RightsFlyer. Or he's me. Or whatever!
Damn, now we're doing what I just accused my old buddy Notso Fantastic (who is also me, btw) of doing - 7500-ing a thread! Back to unions, scabs, and filthy capitalist pig management please lads!!
Damn, now we're doing what I just accused my old buddy Notso Fantastic (who is also me, btw) of doing - 7500-ing a thread! Back to unions, scabs, and filthy capitalist pig management please lads!!
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Roger Guvnor, code 7500 observed, what are your intentions?
Who is the airline that is under threat of outsourcing? Is it possible for contract pilots to get work permits and validations in the country in question?
Who is the airline that is under threat of outsourcing? Is it possible for contract pilots to get work permits and validations in the country in question?
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but my experience with these deals is that the company is usually quite willing to pay foreigners far more than they were paying nationals to do the same job.
So that blows the argument of greedy pilots seeking selfish interests, if the company pays scabs more to do the same job, there is more at stake than pilot pay.
So what's the deal Stuka?
So that blows the argument of greedy pilots seeking selfish interests, if the company pays scabs more to do the same job, there is more at stake than pilot pay.
So what's the deal Stuka?
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Blow me down, I try to read something intelligent, and here he is again. Pontificating away, following me around the web spouting opinions on the works. It's not as if he's an expert (on anything!). You'd think so- he should pass 3000 posts in 2 weeks....all here! Read about him. What word springs to mind........ [URL=http://flytristar.tripod.com/article/art06.html]
Let's see....dreamer? charlatan? Walter Mitty? Failure? Disappointer? Of course I wouldn't use any of those names myself- just trying to help you form ideas. You'd think with getting on for 3000 opinions on everything aviation, he should be Stephen Wolf, Lord King, Carty. Instead it's someone who promises all so much......we're still waiting Buddy!
[ 08 September 2001: Message edited by: Notso Fantastic ]
Let's see....dreamer? charlatan? Walter Mitty? Failure? Disappointer? Of course I wouldn't use any of those names myself- just trying to help you form ideas. You'd think with getting on for 3000 opinions on everything aviation, he should be Stephen Wolf, Lord King, Carty. Instead it's someone who promises all so much......we're still waiting Buddy!
[ 08 September 2001: Message edited by: Notso Fantastic ]
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Good grief, Notso Fantastic - not only are you trying to hijack the Air Transat thread - and seemingly now this one - but you apparently either have a massively overinflated ego or cannot speak English properly - how can I be "following you around the web" when I was here already? Grow up and get a life.
Right, back to the subject at hand...
RightsFlyer - usually what happens in these cases is that the carriers will take replacement crews on a short term basis; and yes, they will often pay them substantially more than the people they are replacing. It's normally done as a negotiating tactic rather than as a permanent move - frankly few airlines want to throw away their (very substantial) investment in their people. At the same time, they need to ensure that the company keeps operating with a minimum of inconvenience to the passengers and shippers - otherwise you have the same situation as is currently developing at Sabena where the company is beyond recovery. Brinksmanship, to the max!
Grow up and get a life. Right, back to the subject at hand...
RightsFlyer - usually what happens in these cases is that the carriers will take replacement crews on a short term basis; and yes, they will often pay them substantially more than the people they are replacing. It's normally done as a negotiating tactic rather than as a permanent move - frankly few airlines want to throw away their (very substantial) investment in their people. At the same time, they need to ensure that the company keeps operating with a minimum of inconvenience to the passengers and shippers - otherwise you have the same situation as is currently developing at Sabena where the company is beyond recovery. Brinksmanship, to the max!
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Dear Guvnor, pete, Dropp etc...
Right, I see I've started a bizantine discussion. To get things straight first you would have to understand my country's labor laws. Well for starters workers in any field have no rights whatsoever, all laws are disigned to favor the shareholders or owners/politicians.Anyone can come from another country and take my job, if he'll do it cheaper. However there's no chance I can get a job in UK or US as a pilot since the law does not allow it.
However due to the nature of our jobs the only people who has any leverage to negotiate in this country are pilots, doctors and people who work in the mines. Believe me I'm not against the basic laws of offer and demand. It's just that LanChile management in its paranoid crusade against any kind of organized labor movement will go to such extent as paying market wages(way above ours) for short term contracts in order to crush the current pilot union. It has paid millionare dividends to anyone who will quit the union. Do you think that a U$ 4000 a month pilot expects a 100 % increase? We just want our legal right to negotiate in order to improve our poor quality of life before we are all replaced by even cheaper pilots, who , believe me, are not being screened the way we were. It doesn't matter the background of the pilot as far as he's cheap. We know they all hold a license but... when you are going to be treated by a doctor, you don't care who he is as far as he holds license, or, would you rather check his background, experience and education?. Managers in LanChile have salaries thirteen times greater than a senior captain, and believe me, a lot more than what the guvnor and pete make, they don't have that much time to spend surfing the web. Don't you think it would be fair for us to even half what the world market pays.For your information LanChile had more profits last year than United, and they got a 30% increase, and you don't even give us the right to negotiate fair and square. I know that god created all men equal, but some are more equal than others.theythey
Right, I see I've started a bizantine discussion. To get things straight first you would have to understand my country's labor laws. Well for starters workers in any field have no rights whatsoever, all laws are disigned to favor the shareholders or owners/politicians.Anyone can come from another country and take my job, if he'll do it cheaper. However there's no chance I can get a job in UK or US as a pilot since the law does not allow it.
However due to the nature of our jobs the only people who has any leverage to negotiate in this country are pilots, doctors and people who work in the mines. Believe me I'm not against the basic laws of offer and demand. It's just that LanChile management in its paranoid crusade against any kind of organized labor movement will go to such extent as paying market wages(way above ours) for short term contracts in order to crush the current pilot union. It has paid millionare dividends to anyone who will quit the union. Do you think that a U$ 4000 a month pilot expects a 100 % increase? We just want our legal right to negotiate in order to improve our poor quality of life before we are all replaced by even cheaper pilots, who , believe me, are not being screened the way we were. It doesn't matter the background of the pilot as far as he's cheap. We know they all hold a license but... when you are going to be treated by a doctor, you don't care who he is as far as he holds license, or, would you rather check his background, experience and education?. Managers in LanChile have salaries thirteen times greater than a senior captain, and believe me, a lot more than what the guvnor and pete make, they don't have that much time to spend surfing the web. Don't you think it would be fair for us to even half what the world market pays.For your information LanChile had more profits last year than United, and they got a 30% increase, and you don't even give us the right to negotiate fair and square. I know that god created all men equal, but some are more equal than others.theythey
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Right on, Stuka.
In fact, I would expect a US $4,000 a month Captain to seek more than a 100% increase, since in the open market, the job is worth $8,000 to $10,000.
The fact that the company claims it cannot afford to pay you more merely indicates that you are subsidising the company to the tune of $4,000 to $6,000 per month.
You may choose to accept their statement at face value, but without access to their books they may be fooling you.
If you accept that they genuinely can't pay more, then you have to discuss how they want to treat your input of $4,000 to $6,000 per month. You could do anything from a straight commercial loan to low cost benefits like travel, etc.
The fact is, there is a going rate for everything, fuel, aircraft, insurance, etc, etc, and labour is just another commodity. If the company is getting the going rate for it's product (tickets) you should look to see why it can only survive with the subsidy on labour from the employees.
It must be paying over the going rate for something, or is being managed inefficiently.
Neither of these two options is your fault, so you must receive some recognition for your generous input into keeping the company going.
In fact, I would expect a US $4,000 a month Captain to seek more than a 100% increase, since in the open market, the job is worth $8,000 to $10,000.
The fact that the company claims it cannot afford to pay you more merely indicates that you are subsidising the company to the tune of $4,000 to $6,000 per month.
You may choose to accept their statement at face value, but without access to their books they may be fooling you.
If you accept that they genuinely can't pay more, then you have to discuss how they want to treat your input of $4,000 to $6,000 per month. You could do anything from a straight commercial loan to low cost benefits like travel, etc.
The fact is, there is a going rate for everything, fuel, aircraft, insurance, etc, etc, and labour is just another commodity. If the company is getting the going rate for it's product (tickets) you should look to see why it can only survive with the subsidy on labour from the employees.
It must be paying over the going rate for something, or is being managed inefficiently.
Neither of these two options is your fault, so you must receive some recognition for your generous input into keeping the company going.
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Sorry, I disagree - there's no such thing as a 'global pay rate' except for some very rare and sought-after people. Salary levels are determined by local conditions - and it's a lot cheaper to live in Santiago than it is in London, for example.
In my opinion, I'd put a well qualified Captain's salary at the equivalent of that paid to a GP (doctor), accountant or solicitor. How much are those categories paid in Chile, Stuka? Those pay levels are not dissimilar to those found elsewhere in developing nations - and frankly are considerably better than many.
If the company is as profitable as you say - then why not go into some sort of profitsharing agreement? It works very well at Singapore Airlines, where staff last year had a bonus equivalent to over six months worth of pay!
If all else fails, there's always the option for Lan Chile pilots to work elsewhere. There are plenty of airlines looking for highly qualified B767 or A340 drivers - especially in Asia.
By the way, who owns Lan Chile these days - isn't it SAS and Continental?
Incidentally, changing the subject somewhat, I understand from a colleague that New Zealand regards an ATPL as a qualification equivalent to a BSc - and a CPL as an equivalent to an A level - for its immigration procedures.
In my opinion, I'd put a well qualified Captain's salary at the equivalent of that paid to a GP (doctor), accountant or solicitor. How much are those categories paid in Chile, Stuka? Those pay levels are not dissimilar to those found elsewhere in developing nations - and frankly are considerably better than many.
If the company is as profitable as you say - then why not go into some sort of profitsharing agreement? It works very well at Singapore Airlines, where staff last year had a bonus equivalent to over six months worth of pay!
If all else fails, there's always the option for Lan Chile pilots to work elsewhere. There are plenty of airlines looking for highly qualified B767 or A340 drivers - especially in Asia.
By the way, who owns Lan Chile these days - isn't it SAS and Continental?
Incidentally, changing the subject somewhat, I understand from a colleague that New Zealand regards an ATPL as a qualification equivalent to a BSc - and a CPL as an equivalent to an A level - for its immigration procedures.
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Folks:
First I thank you pete otube for getting my point, It shows that you are open minded when given proper arguments. To the others I once again thank you for your support, and to the guvnor, I think your doubts are valid, so I'll elaborate a little bit. Cost of living in Santiago is similar to the US, Education is more expensive, food is similar, cars are more expensive, housing is cheaper etc... And by all means I will never make as much as a doctor, not even half of it...This is a country of fenitians, did I spell it right? If you are educated in trade or slave management, then you are paid extremely well. As I stated before a manager in LanChile can make thirteen times as much as a senior captain, which I think is a bit overinflated by any world standard. As of profit sharing, LanChile has not paid them in 4 years, even though every employee of the company is entitled to it by the law thanks to some thecnicalities. And believe you me...they have made money. Finally, unfortunately chileans are not like saxons, we don't like to leave our country, most chileans die where they are born, not that I like it, but that's the way it is, and besides why should I leave a company where I invested 14 years of my life, just because management wants to screw me up?.
And one point I wanted to stress... as a passenger, who would you rather fly with?, a pilot who's a member of the union...whatever ills might that come with, and was selected by the usual selection process, and who is standarized to company procedures with a known proffessional history, or some scab with an obscure past, brought in in a hurry in order to replace me ?
First I thank you pete otube for getting my point, It shows that you are open minded when given proper arguments. To the others I once again thank you for your support, and to the guvnor, I think your doubts are valid, so I'll elaborate a little bit. Cost of living in Santiago is similar to the US, Education is more expensive, food is similar, cars are more expensive, housing is cheaper etc... And by all means I will never make as much as a doctor, not even half of it...This is a country of fenitians, did I spell it right? If you are educated in trade or slave management, then you are paid extremely well. As I stated before a manager in LanChile can make thirteen times as much as a senior captain, which I think is a bit overinflated by any world standard. As of profit sharing, LanChile has not paid them in 4 years, even though every employee of the company is entitled to it by the law thanks to some thecnicalities. And believe you me...they have made money. Finally, unfortunately chileans are not like saxons, we don't like to leave our country, most chileans die where they are born, not that I like it, but that's the way it is, and besides why should I leave a company where I invested 14 years of my life, just because management wants to screw me up?.
And one point I wanted to stress... as a passenger, who would you rather fly with?, a pilot who's a member of the union...whatever ills might that come with, and was selected by the usual selection process, and who is standarized to company procedures with a known proffessional history, or some scab with an obscure past, brought in in a hurry in order to replace me ?
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Stuka - I see where you're coming from and I certainly have a great deal of sympathy for you and your colleagues.
However, you have said that there is a legal - rather than contractual or moral - duty on the part of the company to pay profit share - why can't the union take them to court to enforce that?
Cost of Living in Santiago:
One litre bottle of mineral water: Ch$800 (US$1.20)
33cl bottle of beer: Ch$600 (US$0.90)
36-exposure colour film: Ch$1500 (US$2.25)
City-centre bus ticket: Ch$200 (US$0.30)
Adult football ticket: From Ch$4000 (US$6.00)
Three-course meal with wine/beer: From Ch$8000 (US$12.00)
Cost of Living in London:
One-litre bottle of mineral water: £0.70 (US$1.02)
33cl bottle of beer: £0.99 (US$1.40)
Financial Times newspaper: £0.85 (US$1.30)
36-exposure colour film: £3.99 (US$5.10)
City-centre bus ticket: £1 (US$1.45)
Adult football ticket: £20-40 (US$28.90 - 57.80)
Three-course meal with wine/beer: From £17 (US$25)
Cost of Living in New York:
One-litre bottle of mineral water: US$2
33cl bottle of beer: US$2
Financial Times newspaper: US$4.50
36-exposure colour film: US$6.50
City-centre bus ticket: US$1.50
Adult football ticket: US$35-75
Three-course meal with wine/beer: From US$30
However, you have said that there is a legal - rather than contractual or moral - duty on the part of the company to pay profit share - why can't the union take them to court to enforce that?
Cost of Living in Santiago:
One litre bottle of mineral water: Ch$800 (US$1.20)
33cl bottle of beer: Ch$600 (US$0.90)
36-exposure colour film: Ch$1500 (US$2.25)
City-centre bus ticket: Ch$200 (US$0.30)
Adult football ticket: From Ch$4000 (US$6.00)
Three-course meal with wine/beer: From Ch$8000 (US$12.00)
Cost of Living in London:
One-litre bottle of mineral water: £0.70 (US$1.02)
33cl bottle of beer: £0.99 (US$1.40)
Financial Times newspaper: £0.85 (US$1.30)
36-exposure colour film: £3.99 (US$5.10)
City-centre bus ticket: £1 (US$1.45)
Adult football ticket: £20-40 (US$28.90 - 57.80)
Three-course meal with wine/beer: From £17 (US$25)
Cost of Living in New York:
One-litre bottle of mineral water: US$2
33cl bottle of beer: US$2
Financial Times newspaper: US$4.50
36-exposure colour film: US$6.50
City-centre bus ticket: US$1.50
Adult football ticket: US$35-75
Three-course meal with wine/beer: From US$30
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Guvnor,
Why don't we take an index of how many days weeks, or months pay, are needed to buy consumer durables in the relative countries.
Items like cars, refrigerators, stoves, TV Stereo, etc.
You could include rent and food too, using the same yardstick.
In other words we are using relative dollars not absolute dollars.
But hang on, if fares are in absolute dollars and costs are in relative dollars, who pockets the considerable difference? Surely no consultants here, Guv??
Why don't we take an index of how many days weeks, or months pay, are needed to buy consumer durables in the relative countries.
Items like cars, refrigerators, stoves, TV Stereo, etc.
You could include rent and food too, using the same yardstick.
In other words we are using relative dollars not absolute dollars.
But hang on, if fares are in absolute dollars and costs are in relative dollars, who pockets the considerable difference? Surely no consultants here, Guv??
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Guvnor,
The very mention of consultants wakes me from my torpor!
However, on the matter of compensation, the reason pilots are not happy with profit sharing is that it depends on the skill(and honesty) of management to produce and honestly report profits to be shared.
Pilots produce in a predictable measurable and regular way, managers do not.
Let the managers pay be totally performance related, their job is to manage, let them be judged by the results.If they get it all wrong, they don't get paid.
Fair enough?
The very mention of consultants wakes me from my torpor!
However, on the matter of compensation, the reason pilots are not happy with profit sharing is that it depends on the skill(and honesty) of management to produce and honestly report profits to be shared.
Pilots produce in a predictable measurable and regular way, managers do not.
Let the managers pay be totally performance related, their job is to manage, let them be judged by the results.If they get it all wrong, they don't get paid.
Fair enough?
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SeaSunSandFly - I was wondering how long it would take you to sniff out the 'c' word! I'd suspect that in Chile things work pretty much the same as they do in your neck of the woods - consultancy fees and fat brown envelopes all round!
I agree completely with you though - management (including chief pilots ) should receive a decent basic salary and bonuses based on results. In fact, you could even have it structured in such a way that management receieved a pay cut in the event of losses, which I think would focus their minds tremendously!
This would have the happy benefit of being able to make profit sharing of all staff viable as honest figures would have to be produced by management to justify their own bonuses. An ESOP means that all staff have to be shareholders and under UK law (no idea what the law is in Chile) all shareholders are eligible to receive a copy of the accounts and attend the AGM where they can ask embarrassing questions of management, should it merit it.
RightsFlyer - I agree ... in fact I was looking earlier for a website I had (but seem to have midlaid) that gave such a comparison between all the world's cities - an index compaing the cost of living related to salaries so if you lived in, say, London and moved to Tokyo you'd need to earn 286% of your current salary - that sort of thing. I'll keep looking.
Bear in mind that with lower labour costs (though judging from Stuka's posts management seems to make up for that) lower fares will be possible, which is often the case in developing nations.
As fo consultants, I believe that a US carrier (Continental, I think - though I stand subject to correction here) is indeed charging fairly astronomical consultancy fees for its expertise.
I'd suspect that in Chile things work pretty much the same as they do in your neck of the woods - consultancy fees and fat brown envelopes all round!I agree completely with you though - management (including chief pilots
) should receive a decent basic salary and bonuses based on results. In fact, you could even have it structured in such a way that management receieved a pay cut in the event of losses, which I think would focus their minds tremendously!This would have the happy benefit of being able to make profit sharing of all staff viable as honest figures would have to be produced by management to justify their own bonuses. An ESOP means that all staff have to be shareholders and under UK law (no idea what the law is in Chile) all shareholders are eligible to receive a copy of the accounts and attend the AGM where they can ask embarrassing questions of management, should it merit it.
RightsFlyer - I agree ... in fact I was looking earlier for a website I had (but seem to have midlaid) that gave such a comparison between all the world's cities - an index compaing the cost of living related to salaries so if you lived in, say, London and moved to Tokyo you'd need to earn 286% of your current salary - that sort of thing. I'll keep looking.
Bear in mind that with lower labour costs (though judging from Stuka's posts management seems to make up for that) lower fares will be possible, which is often the case in developing nations.
As fo consultants, I believe that a US carrier (Continental, I think - though I stand subject to correction here) is indeed charging fairly astronomical consultancy fees for its expertise.
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Guvnor and the rest:
I see you do your homework, however you are not playing fair, NYC is not US standard, I would rather use MIA, which is more like the rest of the country, to get an Idea I spend roughly U$ 750 a month in schooling for two kids, roughly 20% of my salary, I will not mention retirement, which by what I've seen posted here, large companies contribute to it, the only thing that LanChile contributes to us is a party a year and our stress levels. As for legal action, we might spend years on it with no results, see what happened with Pinochet, this country is owned by the wealthy and the poweful. Forget about profit sharing, every time wev'e tried something like that they've screwed us over, and that includes every employee, not just pilots. In a letter to all employees critizising our union, the CEO stated " you cannot expect one world wages and working conditions, because this is Chile, latin america, not a developed country". It means we must be supermen, since we have to work more hours, in worse conditions for less money. Curious is that he enjoys a developed world standard of living.I guess being this a third world country, slavery is allowed
I see you do your homework, however you are not playing fair, NYC is not US standard, I would rather use MIA, which is more like the rest of the country, to get an Idea I spend roughly U$ 750 a month in schooling for two kids, roughly 20% of my salary, I will not mention retirement, which by what I've seen posted here, large companies contribute to it, the only thing that LanChile contributes to us is a party a year and our stress levels. As for legal action, we might spend years on it with no results, see what happened with Pinochet, this country is owned by the wealthy and the poweful. Forget about profit sharing, every time wev'e tried something like that they've screwed us over, and that includes every employee, not just pilots. In a letter to all employees critizising our union, the CEO stated " you cannot expect one world wages and working conditions, because this is Chile, latin america, not a developed country". It means we must be supermen, since we have to work more hours, in worse conditions for less money. Curious is that he enjoys a developed world standard of living.I guess being this a third world country, slavery is allowed